Momentum plan to make top rate of council tax £10k

[reddog]

What do you think about this:

https://www.google.ch/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/21/momentum-plans-treble-council-tax-10000-year-richest-homes-pressure/amp/

 

Momentum (Bristol branch) want make highest council tax £10k

 

Would this ever get anywhere?  

I hate the idea (though I would would have a slight amount of schadenfreude again wealthy excolleagues that casual introduced how much their house was worth into the conversation)

Edited November 22, 2017 by reddog

[nothernsoul]

They would be paying more in the famously communist United States of America, where average property tax is between 1 and 1.5 percent of value. Ten grand per year is less than 1  percent on a 1.2 million pound home. They would also be paying noticibly more under the old system of rates.

Im not in favour of taxes for the sake of it but things need to be funded and why should the burden fall on those who work and are taxed through PAYE? I wish the government hadnt reevaluated my income since 1991.

[MARTINX9]

It's exactly the system more or less which existed under domestic rates for a century until 1989. 

An oligarch living at One Hyde park in a £70 million flat would pay barely £1k a year in council tax including single person discount. Thsts now outrageous the current system is.

[reddog]

6 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

They would be paying more in the famously communist United States of America, where average property tax is between 1 and 1.5 percent of value. Ten grand per year is less than 1  percent on a 1.2 million pound home. They would also be paying noticibly more under the old system of rates.

Im not in favour of taxes for the sake of it but things need to be funded and why should the burden fall on those who work and are taxed through PAYE? I wish the government hadnt reevaluated my income since 1991.

That's a fair point, though I don't doubt they would bring income tax down to balance out the situation.

 

I seriously doubt many people in million pound houses could afford this, due to the houses appreciating massively, without their incomes appreciating in the same way.

[winkie]

Because of when CT banding was assessed many yonks ago and the subsequent high HPI in London.......now million pound properties in central London pay less CT than a bog standard semi in other parts of the country.....funny that.

[nothernsoul]

Yes, to make it fair they would have to cut income tax or vat. However, even if the tax wasnt as heavy as  suggested, tax on property is low by historical levels, with those in the lowest value properties paying proportionally more. The tax link between the value of the actual property needs to be restored, which would be easier than ever with modern technology. It is the height of unfairness and political cowardice that council tax hasnt been reassessed for nearly three decades, a process which happened every five years or so under the old rates. 

[Democorruptcy]

Not on the same scale but Scotland has increased council on higher banded houses E to G e.g. Edinburgh

E 7.5%     £107.16
F 12.5%    £211.07
G 17.5% £340.96
H 22.5% £526.05

Then the general 3% rise is added on top.

Public sector pensions aren't cheap.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20005/council_tax/620/council_tax_bands_charges_and_notice

 

[iamnumerate]

Council tax valuations need looking at it, but when the Tories looked at the rates in Scotland in the early 80s it cost them a lot of popularity.

What is really amazing is that if your house had a problem in 1991 which made it worth less you still pay less tax now!

If I were May, I would suggest a cross party review so no one can lose popularity from it.

[Craig_]

6 hours ago, Democorruptcy said:

Not on the same scale but Scotland has increased council on higher banded houses E to G e.g. Edinburgh

E 7.5%     £107.16
F 12.5%    £211.07
G 17.5% £340.96
H 22.5% £526.05

Then the general 3% rise is added on top.

Public sector pensions aren't cheap.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20005/council_tax/620/council_tax_bands_charges_and_notice

 

Tell me about it. I'm in a pretty average 3-bed semi in Edinburgh, yet have to pay £2200 per year.

About twice what your average Russian oligarch in Westminster pays!

[Democorruptcy]

6 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

Tell me about it. I'm in a pretty average 3-bed semi in Edinburgh, yet have to pay £2200 per year.

About twice what your average Russian oligarch in Westminster pays!

Our levels will have to go up. It's just a case of whether we spread the increases across bands like Scotland or just go for a new top band.

Up there was the SNP doing badly in the last election partly due to the council tax increases?

[Arpeggio]

21 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

They would be paying more in the famously communist United States of America, where average property tax is between 1 and 1.5 percent of value. Ten grand per year is less than 1  percent on a 1.2 million pound home. They would also be paying noticibly more under the old system of rates.

Perhaps one reason why houses are cheaper there compared to UK. If average UK houses only went up with inflation since 1995 (e.g. 90k) then the average house would be paying £1350 at 1.5%. With a current average house price of £202k that would be £3030 @ 1.5%.....£1680 of which is on the HPI:- 1.5% of (202k - 90k) = £1680. If based on 1970 prices + inflation then the average house price would be £38k now which would be £570 tax at 1.5%. I'm all for taxing HPI magic money this might be a good idea.

The Tory comments are laughable:

"Tory MP Andrew Bridgen: “It is just a taste of things to come if Jeremy Corbyn’s hard left labour policies were enacted nationally."

I thought he was saying that like it was a good thing? oh he's trying to warn us!?

Edited November 23, 2017 by Arpeggio

[disenfranchised]

The problem with Momuntum is they are basically bitter borderline commie bastards - they would favour that AND raising higher rate income tax AND raising CGT and IHT to punitive rates only to give the lot to give fake disabled people more benefits and re-grow an even more bloated public sector.

What we need is a conservative type party that gets real and starts proposing this stuff as tax reform instead of increases. Collect more tax at source from sources that cannot be moved offshore so that it hits "non doms" and offshore trust users, drop income tax.

In India you pay twice as much for a high end car as you do here. India is widely known for what they call "black money" (tax evaded, invisible assets). But the government still get a big bite when a mid size exec import like a Jaguar XF has registration taxed at 106% making it £80-100k -and- they still sell. 

This is clearly a perfect way forward for an island as it's rather hard to smuggle stuff here. Slash income tax and there's less point in avoiding it. Increase taxes that cannot be avoided - property, certain luxuries that are hard to smuggle. It's a much better way to do things in an increasingly globalised world IMO.

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by disenfranchised

[Arpeggio]

20 hours ago, disenfranchised said:

What we need is a conservative type party that gets real and starts proposing this stuff as tax reform instead of increases. Collect more tax at source from sources that cannot be moved offshore so that it hits "non doms" and offshore trust users, drop income tax.

The “HPC party” or better named “social conservatives” or something.

[crashmonitor]

Well at least Corby will have to stump up 10k on his Islington pad each year assuming it's linked to value.

Incidentally we pay over 2k (band E)on a house that's only worth just over 300k now. The joys of an area where house prices have been stuck for 13 years. So he would be only paying pro rata what we do now assuming his is worth 1.5 million.

[jimmy2x3]

On 23/11/2017 at 12:55 AM, MARTINX9 said:

It's exactly the system more or less which existed under domestic rates for a century until 1989. 

An oligarch living at One Hyde park in a £70 million flat would pay barely £1k a year in council tax including single person discount. Thsts now outrageous the current system is.

yes the same as a young couple living in a static caravan on a residential caravan park 

 

[Bricks n' mortar]

On 11/23/2017 at 4:19 PM, Democorruptcy said:

Up there was the SNP doing badly in the last election partly due to the council tax increases?

No.  The SNP prevented Council tax rises for so many years in a row, there was reasonable public support, or at least acceptance for that one.  People seemed to be under the illusion a council tax rise would 'protect public services', whatever that meant.  It's a different world up here.  Tax rises are actually popular.

Main reason, was labour voters voting tory, and tory voters voting labour - openly encouraged by candidates and Scottish party leaders of the Westminster parties.  This happened, because neither side had anything to lose in Scotland, and both sides believed the outcome was a certain tory win.

Disclosure - I didn't vote.

If Scottish Labour had fought the election against the tories as hard as they did the SNP, you'd have Corbyn for a Prime Minister now.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson


 

[Will!]

It's too bad we can't have some form of land value tax, an updating of Council Tax bands or even a return to domestic rates based on imputed rents, but unfortunately I can't say any way of implementing these without creating a perverse incentive for government to push up land prices, house prices or rents. 

[NuBrit]

37 minutes ago, Bricks n' mortar said:

No.  The SNP prevented Council tax rises for so many years in a row, there was reasonable public support, or at least acceptance for that one.  People seemed to be under the illusion a council tax rise would 'protect public services', whatever that meant.  It's a different world up here.  Tax rises are actually popular.

Main reason, was labour voters voting tory, and tory voters voting labour - openly encouraged by candidates and Scottish party leaders of the Westminster parties.  This happened, because neither side had anything to lose in Scotland, and both sides believed the outcome was a certain tory win.
 

The SNP lost half a million votes on an absolute basis. 

I think the realisation has kicked in for Scottish people that Independence is a very, very scary thing. There are deep rooted structural problems in Scotland that cannot be solved internally. They've probably realised that they need the rest of the UK a lot more than the UK needs them.

[guest_northshore]

28 minutes ago, Will! said:

It's too bad we can't have some form of land value tax, an updating of Council Tax bands or even a return to domestic rates based on imputed rents, but unfortunately I can't say any way of implementing these without creating a perverse incentive for government to push up land prices, house prices or rents. 

LVT's on land rental values not prices. Council tax could do the same. Expending revenue pushing up rents to get some back wouldn't make sense given the changed incentives, even for Gov. Made it onto a sky news piece today. Perhaps the mood's changing, perhaps not: https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-its-time-for-a-land-value-tax-11140829

[Bricks n' mortar]

Don't want to derail the thread.  There's a decent discussion going on about property taxation.  Apologies for not replying further on Scottish indy.

[stuckmojo]

On 23/11/2017 at 11:03 PM, disenfranchised said:

The problem with Momuntum is they are basically bitter borderline commie bastards - they would favour that AND raising higher rate income tax AND raising CGT and IHT to punitive rates only to give the lot to give fake disabled people more benefits and re-grow an even more bloated public sector.

What we need is a conservative type party that gets real and starts proposing this stuff as tax reform instead of increases. Collect more tax at source from sources that cannot be moved offshore so that it hits "non doms" and offshore trust users, drop income tax.

In India you pay twice as much for a high end car as you do here. India is widely known for what they call "black money" (tax evaded, invisible assets). But the government still get a big bite when a mid size exec import like a Jaguar XF has registration taxed at 106% making it £80-100k -and- they still sell. 

This is clearly a perfect way forward for an island as it's rather hard to smuggle stuff here. Slash income tax and there's less point in avoiding it. Increase taxes that cannot be avoided - property, certain luxuries that are hard to smuggle. It's a much better way to do things in an increasingly globalised world IMO.

 

This a million times. Corbyn and momentum scare the shit out of me

[Democorruptcy]

10 hours ago, Bricks n' mortar said:

No.  The SNP prevented Council tax rises for so many years in a row, there was reasonable public support, or at least acceptance for that one.  People seemed to be under the illusion a council tax rise would 'protect public services', whatever that meant.  It's a different world up here.  Tax rises are actually popular.

Main reason, was labour voters voting tory, and tory voters voting labour - openly encouraged by candidates and Scottish party leaders of the Westminster parties.  This happened, because neither side had anything to lose in Scotland, and both sides believed the outcome was a certain tory win.

Disclosure - I didn't vote.

If Scottish Labour had fought the election against the tories as hard as they did the SNP, you'd have Corbyn for a Prime Minister now.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson


 

OK thanks.

[dropbear]

On 23/11/2017 at 12:55 AM, MARTINX9 said:

It's exactly the system more or less which existed under domestic rates for a century until 1989. 

An oligarch living at One Hyde park in a £70 million flat would pay barely £1k a year in council tax including single person discount. Thsts now outrageous the current system is.

Why is this outrageous? Does he use the schools, roads or rubbish collection any more than a normal person?

Council tax ostensibly pays for these services, it shouldn’t be used to drain wealth from successful people. 

There’s a lot of tall poppy syndrome going on in here.

 

 

[crashmonitor]

1 hour ago, stuckmojo said:

 Corbyn and momentum scare the shit out of me

You should be, you on the list Comrade.

[nothernsoul]

 This isnt tall poppy syndrome. The same argument was used to justify the council tax, that the duke of westminster uses the same services as someone on a low wage who rents a council house, so why shouldnt they pay the same? The problem was considerations of fairness had nothing to do with a policy that was more about a massive redistribution of wealth upwards. 

The difference is council tax isnt just a charge to empty the bins and fill in potholes on the roads, it funds a whole array of local services, with a significant percentage of the shortfall being made up from central government funds. If enough tax isnt being collected  on one persons property wealth, it must be made up from another persons income, or from the from VAT payed by a poor person buying a coat, or by a shopkeepers business rates, or from government borrowing carried by future generations. Or a library being closed. 

I dont believe people should be punished for living in a nice house. I just think they should pay a similar proportion to what they did under the old rates before council tax was introduced. Or pay some kind of tax on the capital gains when they sell.  Nobody on this forum would argue that unprecedented levels of unearned wealth havent been redistributed to homeowners, so what justification is there for them paying less than ever on it?