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From time to time, we hear of people who claim that they can't afford to buy property in the expensive area of the country where they work, but have "got themselves into property" with BTL in a cheaper area.  Innit.  Usually in the context of them moaning that they have to pay the 3% SDLT surcharge when they later want to buy a house to live in and discover that this is not a "first time" buy.

An interesting detail from the budget documents is that people buying their first property as a BTL in future won't qualify for the new FTB stamp duty exemption.

Quote

The third condition: The purchaser or purchasers are first time buyers intending to occupy the dwelling as a main residence

....  All the purchasers must intend to occupy the dwelling as their only or main residence.

Then when later they want to buy a house to live in themselves, they won't qualify for the FTB SDLT exemption then either, and will also have to pay the 3% additional property surcharge.

Quote

Chapter 3: Definition of a first time buyer

In order to count as a first time buyer, a purchaser must not, either alone or with others, have previously acquired a major interest in a dwelling or an equivalent interest in land situated anywhere in the world.

This includes previous acquisitions by inheritance or gift...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661728/8274_guidance_note_SDLT_relief_for_first_time_buyers.pdf

That is an enormous disincentive to budding BTLers. 

A lot of care has gone into the wording of those rules.  I wonder, if the experience of dealing with 118ers' ranty self-entitled letters has alerted HMRC and Treasury officials to some of the BTLers' past practices?

Edited by Dyson Fury
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1 hour ago, Social Justice League said:

What is truly heinous is the fact that there is never any mention from Tory politicians that property prices are too high and this is the reason why first time buyers can't buy.

How on the one hand can Carnage talk about the public being too much in debt and then on the other hand we have Hammond encouraging the public to take out ridiculously high mortgage multiples?

 

Disgusting.

 

(and the answer to why productivity is going to hell in a handcart can be found quite easily too.  Many people are now giving up "working hard", as the don't have anywhere secure to live.  Basic  needs are being throw out the window by the current system, so why would anyone with half a brain want to work hard and pay tax to a system like that)

Yep, anyone with a brain is realising that every year you work hard, get a pay rise for their efforts and then see that houses are getting more expensive at a faster rate than the pay rise. It makes people think what's the point- surely employers are seeing this and should be getting angry too

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9 hours ago, Castlevania said:

How would they ever find out? And if they did after you claimed, what's the worst thing that can happen? They ask for the money back? Between the HtB ISA and this you're looking at up to £8k. That's worth applying for even if not a first time buyer in the purest sense in my opinion.

Also the Lifetime isa to consider

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1 hour ago, Lavalas said:

I was quite surprised yesterday afternoon to hear the news on BBC 6music describe the Stamp Duty cut as ‘a boost for the housing market’, not first time buyers... the housing market. We know what the BBC generally considered a boost to be so I guess it took about two hours for the truth of the policy to start coming out.

We know the media pushes its own agenda but you have to wonder how soon it will be when the producers/ journalists without housing (and want reduced prices) outnumber those with housing (and hence happy with pushing hpi). 

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2 hours ago, Ash4781 said:

Oops. Including a revised huge downward growth forecast and doing little about it doesn’t appear to be going down well. It’s unraveling faster than last years budget. 

I'm still rolling my eyes at people getting all upset about it not being high enough, and confusing a lower level of growth than they wanted with a big recession.  You should be more concerned about the view that big growth is necessary to just stay still, that's a sign of something being badly effed up. Zero growth shouldn't make things worse in any way whatsoever, even a degree of negative shouldn't be too much of a hassle. A worry that the rate of change might continue and turn it into a big negative that goes on for a long time, yes, but that's not quite the same as worrying about the numbers as they are.

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46 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

I'm still rolling my eyes at people getting all upset about it not being high enough, and confusing a lower level of growth than they wanted with a big recession.  You should be more concerned about the view that big growth is necessary to just stay still, that's a sign of something being badly effed up. Zero growth shouldn't make things worse in any way whatsoever, even a degree of negative shouldn't be too much of a hassle. A worry that the rate of change might continue and turn it into a big negative that goes on for a long time, yes, but that's not quite the same as worrying about the numbers as they are.

Not another one against the legalisation of Cannabis ...

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13 hours ago, crazypabs said:

first time buyer as defined...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers

"A first time buyer is defined as an individual or individuals who have never owned an interest in a residential property in the United Kingdom or anywhere else in the world and who intends to occupy the property as their main residence."

no discount for me then 

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10 minutes ago, thewig said:

perpetual growth is only a requirement of the DEBTslave system. we are all conditioned that GROWTH is everything, but its really only a requirement for the DEBTpushers when you take a step back and think about it

 

Inflation is also unnatural. The natural state of affairs under a sensible monetary system (i.e. gold standard) is mild deflation. So that things get gradually cheaper over time, and money set aside (saved) eventually buys a lot more after decades have passed (without the need for interest).

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2 hours ago, crashmonitor said:

Not surprising really that, as usual, the country is being ran for the benefit of the New metro elite  left ''Anywheres'' and not the settled communities of Shire counties. Systematically destroying the economy with their cuckoo housing  and migration policies since 1997.

Yep,  I can only give this budget 3/10.  My Rating is somewhere between Poor and Mediocre.  Only got that rating because they didn't do something truly catastrophic.

The stamp duty exemption is to keep the London HPI rolling, no doubt about it.

The rest of it is gimmicky giveaways and turgid mediocrity.  At this stage we really needed something more inspiring.

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"A first time buyer is defined as an individual or individuals who have never owned an interest in a residential property in the United Kingdom or anywhere else in the world and who intends to occupy the property as their main residence."

....all well and good....but won't people lie?.....how can it be proven that someone has no interest or never had an interest in property throughout the world......could they not say they intend to occupy it but then don't?.......this policy is more political than practical.;)

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23 minutes ago, kzb said:

Yep,  I can only give this budget 3/10.  My Rating is somewhere between Poor and Mediocre.  Only got that rating because they didn't do something truly catastrophic.

The stamp duty exemption is to keep the London HPI rolling, no doubt about it.

The rest of it is gimmicky giveaways and turgid mediocrity.  At this stage we really needed something more inspiring.

Actually I think if you want reduced house prices it was alright because of` it's mediocrity. I remember a mentor of mine when I was  a young manager explaining about how expenses work. I was fretting over a cab here, a tube journey there when signing them off. He said give them a cursory glance your strategy sets the level, which accounts you have given to which engineer, the geographical spread and their skill sets. Micro managing the expenses is a waste of time.

The same with the housing market. S24, Mortgage lending tightening, Student Debt ever increasing, less foreign money, inflation, low pay rises   Brexit etc...so it is with this minor tweak of SDLT its a tactic which won't have a massive impact on whether HPI continues or not - personally bit like seeing the plane before it's sound because light travels faster, I thin k the  market has turned and they know that.

Edited by Greg Bowman
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Perhaps all this budget says to younger people is.....we know and understand the difficulties you are going through, and how much harder it is nowadays to climb the slippery slope of prosperity, stability and security, we have listened, and have decided to help you this time (not the others, the usual ones we like to help) to give you something for nothing when everyone else will still have to pay....see we are thinking of you, we need you so we will help you lots.;)

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2 minutes ago, winkie said:

Perhaps all this budget says to younger people is.....we know and understand the difficulties you are going through, and how much harder it is nowadays to climb the slippery slope of prosperity, stability and security, we have listened, and have decided to help you this time (not the others, the usual ones we like to help) to give you something for nothing when everyone else will still have to pay....see we are thinking of you, we need you so we will help you lots.;)

TBH you are probably right.  People respond to Virtue Signalling and Gesture Politics more than anything that would actually make a difference.  This is what budget day is becoming.

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the stamp duty crime has another twist.

It will stop people selling up and cashing in their chips at the bottom of the pyramid.

When they come to buy again they will be competing with people who are not paying stamp duty.

 

Property Portfolio Phil needs to go to jail to teach him a lesson or two

 

 

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35 minutes ago, winkie said:

....has yet to be printed.;)

I can see the political reasons for not putting it in yet. 

We don't know what it is of course. 

Also, putting in an estimated figure would immediately be seized on as the figure we expect to pay.

But the fact remains there are likely several tens of billion addition to stick on the tab sometime in the next few years.

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2 hours ago, UnconventionalWisdom said:

Yep, anyone with a brain is realising that every year you work hard, get a pay rise for their efforts and then see that houses are getting more expensive at a faster rate than the pay rise. It makes people think what's the point- surely employers are seeing this and should be getting angry too

Was in a meeting at work recently, with potential customers, mid-senior level management within NHS CCG. We were talking about the national shortage of nurses and how employers are offering them golden handshakes to recruit etc. figure of £5k was mentioned, this one Boomer Lady said "well that's a deposit on a house".


This was in West London.

 

Out of touch does not begin to describe it. I was trying to secure business "in work mode" so refrained from offering an alternate viewpoint to that one. Perception is reality I guess.

 

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http://www.blplaw.com/expert-legal-insights/articles/autumn-budget-2017-hidden-tax-blow-to-real-estate-sector

"...a U-turn to tax gains made by non-residents on UK commercial property with effect from April 2019 ... consultation also announces a change to the way capital gains tax applies to residential property as it proposes the removal of the exception from non-resident CGT for widely held companies from April 2019 and will also bring indirect disposals of residential property into the charge to tax"

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1 hour ago, kzb said:

Where is the £60 billion "divorce bill" in the deficit forecast?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661480/autumn_budget_2017_web.pdf

page 82 (numbered 80 / 86 in Acrobat), just up from the foot of the page immediately below the bold "National Accounts Taxes" summary line

Own resources contribution to EU : 2016/17 outturn was £3.4 billion, payments to be continued at £3.5 billion pa until at least 2022-23. 

If continued indefinitely, capitalisation at a rate of 20:1 gives an equivalent lump sum total of £70 billion.

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46 minutes ago, thewig said:

Was in a meeting at work recently, with potential customers, mid-senior level management within NHS CCG. We were talking about the national shortage of nurses and how employers are offering them golden handshakes to recruit etc. figure of £5k was mentioned, this one Boomer Lady said "well that's a deposit on a house".


This was in West London.

 

Out of touch does not begin to describe it. I was trying to secure business "in work mode" so refrained from offering an alternate viewpoint to that one. Perception is reality I guess.

 

Dave Edmunds I knew the bride when she used to rock and roll 1977

"Now her proud daddy only wanna give his little girl the best
And so he put down a grand on a cozy little lover's nest"

Those were the days

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