Are we on the brink of social collapse?

[winkie]

 

[Greg Bowman]

10 minutes ago, winkie said:

....the best employers will be able to pick the wheat from the chaff, the truth will reveal itself.....with some clever questions and psychometric tests.

True Winkie but you have to get in the room first and without a firm handshake, a leg up from a relative and the ability to hold a conversation without saying innit you might never get the chance 

[winkie]

17 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said:

True Winkie but you have to get in the room first and without a firm handshake, a leg up from a relative and the ability to hold a conversation without saying innit you might never get the chance 

Totally agree......the more choices/opportunities we have the more freedom we sometimes have to turn down....the more we own and earn the more commitments, insurances and responsibilities we tend to undertake, therefore more freedom we therefore can lose......what we think we want does not always turn out to be what in fact we thought we wanted.......everybody's life is different, there is no right way to live an improved more fulfilling life.

Edited October 18, 2017 by winkie

[Saving For a Space Ship]

12 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

If it really kicks off, it won't stop someone putting a brick on the accelerator of a nicked 13 tonne lorry filled with soil & aiming it at your gated community at 60 mph  

 

1 hour ago, Greg Bowman said:

That is so true 

On second thoughts, you could spend a fortune on barriers, but those rising bollards to stop trucks are very expensive. Even then theirs probably a budget way around it , like molotovs from drones 

 Truck Crashes Into Barrier at 50mph for Strength Test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0hI85R-0aE

[scottbeard]

20 hours ago, disenfranchised said:

Automation was supposed to mean we all work less - reality being I work longer hours than either of my parents did

The key thing that people missed in the "we'll all be working 3 day weeks" is that they realised that it would take less effort in 2017 to produce what they had in (say) 1950.  What they missed is that people would not use the extra 2 days for leisure as originally predicted, but rather would work the extra 2 days in order to get more stuff.

When you look at the food, the holidays, the gadgets, the cars, the healthcare etc that people have today compared to 1950 we are fantastically far ahead.  So we HAVE gained from this automation, but we've gained "stuff" rather than time or necessarily quality of life.

Some no doubt would argue that having more stuff, but a more boring job for 40 hours a week, is a bad trade, but that's the life society has collectively chosen to live by always buying more products and cheaper products etc.

 

[thehowler]

Makes me chortle to hear the agonizing about quality of life on 100K. Fond memories of my central London 90s squat parties...

As for the gated communities, I'd be worried about the security guards eating my poodle a few days into the zombie apocalypse. Who was it on the boards that came out with that line...set up a defensive perimeter with their burned-out Qashqais...that so often comes to mind?

[EssKay]

Are we on the brink of societal collapse - no - far from it.

 

Societies do not collapse with the fairly mild stresses we are currently under.

 

Historically, it takes war, mass starvation, economic collapse, widespread pestilence or a combination of the above for societies to get anywhere near a state where they may collapse.

 

Even a good old revolution requires some kind of oppressive dictatorship and far more stress than our society is currently under 

[frederico]

3 hours ago, JeffNev said:

Personally, I have never understood the dire predictions about our society, and must confess, I do find some of the posts regarding non-British people in London as particularly disturbing. As a society I think we have come a long way over the last 15-20 years.

Why do you find these comments disturbing? Is it because you have a predefined view of other people's attitudes? After all these are just observations. Do you think that when someone says x they mean we have to do y? y being some sort of action that you imagine you wouldn't like.

In what way has society come a long way in the last 20 years? I don't think its come on at all. I would say it's probably been a good 40 years since society rewarded and respected workers and contributors. In fact young adults who do ok in education, behave well in society and generally just want to get on with their not particularly ostentatious lives are treated in an appalling manner by modern society and put up with it.

I am ashamed of the way our society has been managed over the last 40 years. 

 

 

[sPinwheel]

1 minute ago, frederico said:

Why do you find these comments disturbing? Is it because you have a predefined view of other people's attitudes? After all these are just observations. Do you think that when someone says x they mean we have to do y? y being some sort of action that you imagine you wouldn't like.

In what way has society come a long way in the last 20 years? I don't think its come on at all. I would say it's probably been a good 40 years since society rewarded and respected workers and contributors. In fact young adults who do ok in education, behave well in society and generally just want to get on with their not particularly ostentatious lives are treated in an appalling manner by modern society and put up with it.

I am ashamed of the way our society has been managed over the last 40 years. 

 

 

Inferiority complex.

[frederico]

19 minutes ago, EssKay said:

Are we on the brink of societal collapse - no - far from it.

 

Societies do not collapse with the fairly mild stresses we are currently under.

 

Historically, it takes war, mass starvation, economic collapse, widespread pestilence or a combination of the above for societies to get anywhere near a state where they may collapse.

 

Even a good old revolution requires some kind of oppressive dictatorship and far more stress than our society is currently under 

It depends what you set as your expectation of society and what you define as a collapse.

Society as a socially cohesive state of families and communities collapsed a long time ago.

[ccc]

In my lifetime the UK top time was the early to mid 90's. 

We still have a pretty good lifestyle generally in the UK compared to most places on the planet and in the UK in the past. It's definitely on a downward trajectory though. 

[Jolly Roger]

I suppose the term "social collapse" is fairly broad and could mean anything from a Mad Max style road war to government crises and institutional failure.

What I suspect might happen, and which in some ways is more scary than a full blown zombie-event, is a slow-burning decline in many areas of life, in some ways so slow as to be barely perceptible to human experience.  You feel that things have got worse but you can't point to anything concrete, you can't articulate the facts because you don't even know if you trust your own perception. 

This could take the form of things we already feel are happening, like more potholes in the road causing more tyre blowouts and trips to the garage.  Consumer goods being reformulated with inferior ingredients and shrinking sizes.  Longer wait times to obtain official documentation, more spelling and admin errors, drawn out insurance claims, disputes and low-level conflicts with neighbours.

Increasing street crime, more corrupted and corruptible police, degradation in social and institutional trust.  A decay in language standards, a retardation in abstract and higher-level reasoning, a loss of connection to and understanding of the classics of literature and the history of Western civilization.  More cultural relativity, bribery, special pleading, naked group self-interest, ghettoisation, stratification.

[Inoperational Bumblebee]

 Excellent post @Jolly Roger.

[thehowler]

I too used to worry about the loss of a guiding Victorian elite model of rigid knowing-your-place, high-esteem literacy, classical training and scientific rationalism. But now I have my phone to tell me what to do.

[Big Orange]

52 minutes ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

 Excellent post @Jolly Roger.

Nobody took notice about my post stating Britain is socio-economically dying a Death By A Thousand Cuts that's been slowly beeen happening since maybe around the mid 1970s to mid 1980s; the family unit has become harder to sustain and we already had our big economic collapse a decade ago. 

Big riots like in 2011 may plausibly occur as part of bi-anual occurrance and things already metaphorically blew up from the inside with the Brexit vote...

[thehowler]

That's true, Brexit will consume everything. As soon as anyone attempts to make it real it destroys them, they turn to dust, like some Hammer House ancient curse.

But I still don't think it will break Brit society, the true europhiles can always move to the continent and Nick Clegg can start a new party saying we should rejoin/take the currency. Things might get dicey if we stay in though...

[markyh]

16 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

If it really kicks off, it won't stop someone putting a brick on the accelerator of a nicked 13 tonne lorry filled with soil & aiming it at your gated community at 60 mph  

Hmmm. guess so, more efficient than storming through the pedestrian gate 2-3 at a time or climbing over it, it's only 8ft tall with no spikes!!! Still what after that? they would storm waiting firearms with sticks, rocks and Tescos kitchen knives?

I had a tot up chatting in the pub last night, there are at least 12 shotguns on the estate, as some have more than one, each shotgun holds 2 shells or 3 for the pump/semiauto action ones. Autoejection so a competent shooter could reload in under 2 seconds with practice easily. 

So @ 50 yards firing 12g shotguns using LG (.36) 9mm buckshot using a 2 rank "Volley and reload" fire of 6 shooters "Zulu" Roukes Drift Style 19th century tactic reloading after every 2nd shot at a rate of 1 Rank of fire per second, a sustained 60 seconds of firing would send 2880 (8x6x60) of 9mm lethal shot easily covering the width of a 2 lane road. 

At that rate even a few hundred bloodthirsty rioters rushing the gate after the truck would be cut down dead or seriously wounded way before they got anywhere near the shooters 50 yards away.

Read this and watch the video. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/13/a-12-gauge-shotgun-will-kill-how-far/

And yes you can legally own a Benelli M2 semi auto in the UK on a shotgun certificate in a 2 round mag (2+1) 1 in the breach, 2 in the mag and load it with .36 (LG) size buckshot shells.

Of course we are talking series TEOTWAWKI social breakdown here where the Police are not patrolling the streets with Guns semi marshall law style and have lost control of the rioting pollution with TV reports of mobs gangs looting raping and killing peaceful village folk.

I think the Army would be on the streets long before it ever got this bad. Still I feel more comfortable having a firearm in the house.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by markyh
spelling

[Calcutta]

The possible/probable political consequences of having the Brexit vote overturned are terrifying. 

In 2009 2 million people went out and voted for the BNP. Between UKIP and the media's ridiculous Islam fetish that threat was neutralised. Take away the Brexit, let everybody see that the establishment, the rich and the powerful will not stop until we are nothing but serfs, then they or some other abomination will be back with a vengeance.

[zugzwang]

The cost of energy is what matters most.

If we lose the capacity to heat our homes and feed ourselves then cold weather, infant malnutrition and medical shortages will represent a far greater threat to life and limb than groups of unemployed young men on motorcycles.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by zugzwang

[Saving For a Space Ship]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

Hmmm. guess so, more efficient than storming through the pedestrian gate 2-3 at a time or climbing over it, it's only 8ft tall with no spikes!!! Still what after that? they would storm waiting firearms with sticks, rocks and Tescos kitchen knives?

I had a tot up chatting in the pub last night, there are at least 12 shotguns on the estate, as some have more than one, each shotgun holds 2 shells or 3 for the pump/semiauto action ones. Autoejection so a competent shooter could reload in under 2 seconds with practice easily. 

So @ 50 yards firing 12g shotguns using LG (.36) 9mm buckshot using a 2 rank "Volley and reload" fire of 6 shooters "Zulu" Roukes Drift Style 19th century tactic reloading after every 2nd shot at a rate of 1 Rank of fire per second, a sustained 60 seconds of firing would send 2880 (8x6x60) of 9mm lethal shot easily covering the width of a 2 lane road. 

At that rate even a few hundred bloodthirsty rioters rushing the gate after the truck would be cut down dead or seriously wounded way before they got anywhere near the shooters 50 yards away.

Read this and watch the video. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/13/a-12-gauge-shotgun-will-kill-how-far/

And yes you can legally own a Benelli M2 semi auto in the UK on a shotgun certificate in a 2 round mag (2+1) 1 in the breach, 2 in the mag and load it with .36 (LG) size buckshot shells.

Of course we are talking series TEOTWAWKI social breakdown here where the Police are not patrolling the streets with Guns semi marshall law style and have lost control of the rioting pollution with TV reports of mobs gangs looting raping and killing peaceful village folk.

I think the Army would be on the streets long before it ever got this bad. Still I feel more comfortable having a firearm in the house.

 

 

I don't know really,

a friend said to me , if it get that bad , do you really want to live in it ? 

ie mad max 2 etc  

When these prepper type threads popped up on hpc , the Argentina experience was often quoted 

http://www.rapidtrends.com/surving-argentinas-economic-collapse-part-1-3/

The Twilight Zone S03E03 The Shelter  was a classic

Watch out for the local welders or commission a defensive armoured vehicle from them early on ... 

Syrian Civil War - Homemade Tanks and Armored Cars  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiMnDxV8teE

 

[Big Orange]

13 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The cost of energy is what matters most.

If we lose the capacity to heat our homes and feed ourselves then cold weather, infant malnutrition and medical shortages will represent a far greater threat to life and limb than groups of unemployed young men on motorcycles.

 

 

Yes, but organised human societies are relatively resilient and places like Zimbabwe and large swathes of India somehow just about keep on ticking over, inspite being in a condition of ingrained, permanent socio-economic implosion....

[zugzwang]

7 hours ago, Errol said:

As the excellent book 'The Strange Death of Europe' argued, the question of 'non-british' or non white, is really one of how far do we want to go?

London is currently minority white (something like 48%). What levels are acceptable - 25%? 10%? 5%? There has been no discussion about what we want to see and so we are left with areas of London that are in excess of 85% non-white.

 

It has been discussed! I recall then Labour Home Secretary John Reid declaring the immigration system not fit for purpose in 2006 and ordering a review. Nothing changed, the policy of mass, uncontrolled immigration continued as before.

The following year in response to further public disquiet Reid proposed a 'serious, grown-up' discussion about immigration. He even did a little tour of the country as I recall. Again, nothing changed.

It was then disclosed that Reid's Brazilian wife owned a vast property empire in a 'tax efficient' offshore trust... Que sera, sera.

 

[ThoughtCriminal]

14 hours ago, Maynardgravy said:

'That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence' - Christopher Hitchens.

This is exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about. If society actually collectively woke up and realised all the afterlife stories are just fables then they may just be more willing to change things in the here and now.

I believe in the invisible 'magic sandwich'. Disprove it. It's all just wishful thinking.

God is a concept, the magical sandwich, like the flying spaghetti monster , is a rhetorical device, and not a very good one.

 

It's clearly frustrating for you.

[ThoughtCriminal]

8 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

In some ways we have gone back, look at levels of FGM in the UK.

Wasting your time, he could give a rat's about that.

 

We're all the same, etc, etc, etc.....

 

He finds it disturbing that we notice things. I find it disturbing that he doesn't....

[ThoughtCriminal]

4 hours ago, frederico said:

It depends what you set as your expectation of society and what you define as a collapse.

Society as a socially cohesive state of families and communities collapsed a long time ago.

Spot on.

 

This is a house of cards waiting to collapse. It won't take much.