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Bruce Banner

None of your business......

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I am old. Very old. Much older than I imagined yesterday. I know I am old, because I simply haven't got a clue about this.

Can we please have some of our LGBT members explain this to me.

I'm struggling to understand how this differs from being asked (in a thick German accent) "are you a Jew?"

Given my clear lack of understanding, I'm wondering whether this post has offended somebody, and if it has I apologize for that. But I just don't get it.

We are told stress kills. Are we to be also asked our work and leisure pursuits, just to get a picture of our potential stress levels?

And listen to the language:

Quote

Paul Martin, chief executive of Manchester's LGBT Foundation, which worked with NHS England and others to develop sexual orientation monitoring, said he was "so proud" of the new standard.

This just all sounds like profiling. It sounds like stereotyping. How is stereotyping the friend of equality?

:wacko:

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1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

..........will be my reply if asked!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41625402

and......

" NHS England said lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people were "disproportionately affected" by health inequalities such as poor mental health and a higher risk of self-harm and suicide. "

Errr....how do they know that IF there isn't, yet,  the data available to show the officially declared sexual orientation of ALL people with mental health issues?

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1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

..........will be my reply if asked!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41625402

and.......

"Under the guidance, health professionals are to ask patients: "Which of the following options best describes how you think of yourself?". The options include heterosexual or straight, gay or lesbian, bisexual, other sexual orientation, not sure, not stated and not known."

Other?!! What else is there after those already listed?!  Bestiality? Necrophilia??!

I'm surprised they didn't even think to include a 'Can't Remember' category.  :lol:

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5 minutes ago, winkie said:

Just say.....depends what side of the bed got out of....or, what day of the week it is.....that should confuse them.;)

My wife is thinking about misunderstanding the intent of the question and taking it as a proposition.

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It's fair enough to collect data about sexuality, so that the NHS can check whether a particular community is getting a raw deal for treatments (and the same argument applies to gender, race, religion, age...). But it should be at a statistical scale and anonymised, not an entry on your personal health record unless you want it there. Something like in recruitment, where a separate anonymised sheet is detached to compile statistics.

Actually all that's being required here is for GPs to ask the question; we're all free to answer with the original poster's "none of your business".

Personally, I'm gay and have no problem with my GP knowing that - there's much less stigma than there used to be (but ask me the same thirty years ago then I'd have said no), and I could see how it would help them in certain circumstances. But clearly you're entitled to tell them what you want and hold back otherwise. I just find it a bit odd that some people have difficulty with this particular question in an environment when most people reveal very intimate details - sexual dysfunction problems, STDs, gynaecological difficulties, mental health issues...

Oh, and as to orientations, the current list includes lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, asexual, and pansexual (*not* an attraction to cooking implements). But it seems there are more added all the time. As my nan used to say, "there's nowt so queer as folk" ;-)

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Definitely a "none of your business" question. The ones they currently ask when you sign up get that too (smoking, drinking etc., not that I smoke, although I do drink). If the doctor has a reason to think it might be pertinent to anything I go in to get seen to then ask the question then, otherwise not at all.

"None of your business" though applies to just about every single attempt there is to collect data on people, and it's a worrying trend that more and more people appear to not have a problem with such nosiness and think "what have you got to hide?" is a sensible reply. The basic default IMO is to reject any data gathering attempts, no need to try to justify it any more than you need to justify not wanting to have your head kicked in. Only information absolutely necessary for a task should be requested (and no twisting the means to make more and more data necessary either).

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23 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

My wife is thinking about misunderstanding the intent of the question and taking it as a proposition.

Funny....you are right, none of their business....they will want to know what side you dress next;)

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3 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

..........will be my reply if asked!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41625402

It’s bad enough saying “I don’t want to disclose”. But I will still have to ASK THE QUESTION of our predominantly white, over 60 patients, most of whom seem to be deaf. All this in front of a crowded waiting room. Although no instructions have landed at our level yet, I’ve reserved the right to refuse to ask the question. 

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20 minutes ago, Bossybabe said:

It’s bad enough saying “I don’t want to disclose”. But I will still have to ASK THE QUESTION of our predominantly white, over 60 patients, most of whom seem to be deaf. All this in front of a crowded waiting room. Although no instructions have landed at our level yet, I’ve reserved the right to refuse to ask the question. 

Almost ironic isn't it?    Those with any traditional (dare I say 'conservative') sense of moral decency will likely draw a line at this latest dictat feeling uneasy about asking such a question and, like yourself, tell their bosses they don't want to ask the question (I'm sure many staff will also cite personal religious reasons, etc)........  Thus leaving the only people to ask the question the very prurient (even prejudiced) types you wouldn't want to share your sexual orientation with in the first place.   :D

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19 minutes ago, Bossybabe said:

It’s bad enough saying “I don’t want to disclose”. But I will still have to ASK THE QUESTION of our predominantly white, over 60 patients, most of whom seem to be deaf. All this in front of a crowded waiting room. Although no instructions have landed at our level yet, I’ve reserved the right to refuse to ask the question. 

I can already see plenty of TV comedy material arising from such situations.  :D

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1 hour ago, RentingForever said:

Personally, I'm gay and have no problem with my GP knowing that - there's much less stigma than there used to be (but ask me the same thirty years ago then I'd have said no),
 

 

And in thirty years hence? Oh! Too bad, they'd already know

Quote

.... I just find it a bit odd that some people have difficulty with this particular question in an environment when most people reveal very intimate details - sexual dysfunction problems, STDs, gynaecological difficulties, mental health issues...

Because it's not pertinent. What if they asked your salary? What if they asked if you had any items of high value in your home? What time of day you were normally in? Your voting history?

Need-to-know. That's the key for all data protection. How does this comply? And why are you not concerned with this expanding profiling exercise. That's what I find odd. Asking me to explain my desire for privacy? You need to take a long hard look at that one.

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Sorry. I'm having wayyyy too much fun with this thread........

A selection of tempting answers (when the day comes to declare sexual orientation at the GP practice, etc):

"I was straight until I saw you".
 
"Come out here and I'll show you"
 
"I've never looked."
 
"Should I have placed my order ahead?"
 
"42"
 
"Straight, no chaser."
 
"About 20 degrees to the left"
 

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5 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

Asking me to explain my desire for privacy? You need to take a long hard look at that one.

Yet people doing just that is very common indeed. There are all sorts of issues where it arises these days, where if you object on privacy grounds you're actually expected (by some people) to justify that in some other context, rather than the other way around. There is never any need to need to explain a desire for privacy.

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11 minutes ago, anonguest said:

Sorry. I'm having wayyyy too much fun with this thread........

A selection of tempting answers (when the day comes to declare sexual orientation at the GP practice, etc):

"I was straight until I saw you".
 
"Come out here and I'll show you"
 
"I've never looked."
 
"Should I have placed my order ahead?"
 
"42"
 
"Straight, no chaser."
 
"About 20 degrees to the left"
 

Joking aside, there are some valid things you could say that would be true, yet incredibly offensive.

Sexuality designations are becoming more finely grained every day, so why not help them out by employing a little forward thinking.

"Straight" or "heterosexual" probably will be insufficient in 5 years time.

So save them time by being more specific now:

Female doctor : "What is your sexual orientation?"

You : "Broadly female brunettes, but not as dumpy as you. And not as old either. And not with a nose that big.  I couldn't get it up for you. In fact there are loads of blondes I'd go for before you. And redheads for that matter. ..... and your feet are massive compared to what I usually like. Do you work out? Thought not. I like the more athletic type. Now my father, he was different ....... [60 minutes later]."

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Local library used to ask people's sexual orientation when they joined.  (Hetero, L,G,B,T, Other) When I worked there I took pains to point out that they weren't obliged to say, but it was surprising that most people did, despite the 'prefer not to say' option.  Personally I would have preferred 'None of your business!' 

Nobody ever retaliated with anything interesting under the 'other' option, more's  the pity.  The occasional 'necrophiliac' or 'sheep-sh*gger' would have livened up my day.  

I never understood why anyone thought it necessary to ask - except that the local council was obsessed with all things 'diversity'.  It wasn't as if we had room for dedicated shelves of LGBTOther stock anyway. 

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3 hours ago, anonguest said:

I can already see plenty of TV comedy material arising from such situations.  :D

I can almost see the script by Phil Hammond, whom I worked with many years ago when he was a junior doc in Bristol. He has a wry insight into most aspects of the NHS. 

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55 minutes ago, Mrs Bear said:

Local library used to ask people's sexual orientation when they joined.  (Hetero, L,G,B,T, Other) When I worked there I took pains to point out that they weren't obliged to say, but it was surprising that most people did, despite the 'prefer not to say' option.  Personally I would have preferred 'None of your business!' 

Nobody ever retaliated with anything interesting under the 'other' option, more's  the pity.  The occasional 'necrophiliac' or 'sheep-sh*gger' would have livened up my day.  

I never understood why anyone thought it necessary to ask - except that the local council was obsessed with all things 'diversity'.  It wasn't as if we had room for dedicated shelves of LGBTOther stock anyway. 

Was that in the 1980’s with a ‘loony left’ council?  I worked in SE London in the late 80’s. I had to run ‘Anti racist’ training in the NHS, due to the influence on the board of loony left councillors. Now it’s all coming home to roost. ?

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1 hour ago, Mrs Bear said:

Local library used to ask people's sexual orientation when they joined.  (Hetero, L,G,B,T, Other) When I worked there I took pains to point out that they weren't obliged to say, but it was surprising that most people did, despite the 'prefer not to say' option.  Personally I would have preferred 'None of your business!'

And "prefer not to say" and "none of your business" are rather different things anyway. I don't mind saying, should there be any sensible reason to say.

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Theres worse, look at the codes the NHS still use for recording your ethnicity:

http://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/data_dictionary/attributes/e/end/ethnic_category_code_de.asp

If you are black, they use 'N' for 'Ni66er'

I guess they can't use 'B' for Black because that would put them at the top of the list, we can use 'A' for White people though, thats OK.

Just a bit racist then..  ╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

My guess is that some of the other ethnic codes were randomly thrown in to disguise the unfortunate historic choice of letters, if they really wanted to be comprehensive there are a lot more ethnicities than that.

There is also an extended code http://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/data_dictionary/data_field_notes/p/pds/pds_ethnic_category_code_de.asp?shownav=1
But even there, the N still gets to cover all of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_of_Africa

 

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3 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

And in thirty years hence? Oh! Too bad, they'd already know

Because it's not pertinent. What if they asked your salary? What if they asked if you had any items of high value in your home? What time of day you were normally in? Your voting history?

Need-to-know. That's the key for all data protection. How does this comply? And why are you not concerned with this expanding profiling exercise. That's what I find odd. Asking me to explain my desire for privacy? You need to take a long hard look at that one.

I think we're agreeing violently!

I don't mind them asking the question of everyone if the results are anonymised, collated and the resulting statistics used to identify areas where certain communities are getting worse outcomes from the NHS than they should.

I don't mind my sexuality being on my record because yes, there are some medical circumstances where being gay is pertinent and I'd want my GP to have all the relevant information they need to give me the best healthcare. But that's my personal choice and I'd not condemn anyone who says no. I was simply pointing out that the patient-GP relationship covers many intimate areas and needs to be open within that conversation, but private outside it.

But yes, I am coming at this from a position of trust that the level of data access and sharing of patient records is more tightly controlled than, say, HMRC records. If HMRC asked me I'd be much more inclined to tell them to bugger off. You're clearly more concerned with data misuse. I could be being naive; you could be being paranoid; the truth is probably somewhere in between.

As to what would happen if things went back to how they were thirty years ago, I suspect my civil partnership already let that pink cat out of the bag. But then, if you're (straight) married you've already revealed your sexual preference to the state too.

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2 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said:

Theres worse, look at the codes the NHS still use for recording your ethnicity:

http://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/data_dictionary/attributes/e/end/ethnic_category_code_de.asp

If you are black, they use 'N' for 'Ni66er'

I guess they can't use 'B' for Black because that would put them at the top of the list, we can use 'A' for White people though, thats OK.

Just a bit racist then..  ╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

My guess is that some of the other ethnic codes were randomly thrown in to disguise the unfortunate historic choice of letters, if they really wanted to be comprehensive there are a lot more ethnicities than that.

There is also an extended code http://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/data_dictionary/data_field_notes/p/pds/pds_ethnic_category_code_de.asp?shownav=1
But even there, the N still gets to cover all of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_of_Africa

 

I’ve been banging on about these designations for almost 35 years. They’re not all ethnicities. Some are nationalities. The data on Indian and Pakistani was designed to find out how many doctors of those nationalities were coming in to work in the NHS. Those on Irish background were about nurses from Ireland. The whole system needs overhauling. 

I thought at work today that patients will have to fill in a hefty MCQ before they’re allowed to see their doc or dentist. :huh: It will necessitate felling a few forests to print the extra forms x 60 million. 

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  • 293 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


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