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Lurkst

US rapper crowdfunding to prove Earth is flat

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He might be right.  I, personally, have seen no direct evidence that the earth is round (although there are volumes of second-hand indirect and independent evidence out there).

The trouble is, either the overwhelming second-hand evidence is right and he is wrong, or there is a massive conspiracy and he'll either be 'proven wrong' or be suicided. 

Either way, a wasted $1m.

 

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1 hour ago, dgul said:

I, personally, have seen no direct evidence that the earth is round 

:blink:

You only need to have watched the sun set for starters.

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34 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

:blink:

You only need to have watched the sun set for starters.

That would still work with a sun rotating around a flat earth, or even a sun being eaten by a massive dragon over the sea at the end of the world only to be born again the next morning.

Science is funny like that.  It makes us think that we're clever because we 'know' that the earth is round, but actually the vast majority of us only have faith that the pronouncements made are true.

Even for the easy complex stuff there is nearly always faith.  eg, looking at the motions of the planets and plotting out the motions, then working out that the motions conform to a simple elliptical orbit rather than a complex series of epicycles -- very few people have actually done this, so for everyone else there has to be faith that those that have done it are trustworthy and, perhaps, even that they actually exist.

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13 minutes ago, dgul said:

That would still work with a sun rotating around a flat earth, or even a sun being eaten by a massive dragon over the sea at the end of the world only to be born again the next morning.

I'm sure many of our ancestors had similar beliefs. But then they didn't know America existed nevermind the fact that the sun was still shining there after it had set here...

 

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3 hours ago, dgul said:

He might be right.  I, personally, have seen no direct evidence that the earth is round

 

View from the window of a commercial flight?

 

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Stand by the seaside anywhere where you can see something out at sea (or across a large bay), and notice the bottom part being below the horizon. A large bay, or from / to an island with mountains on the other side is ideal for that.

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10 hours ago, Lurkst said:

I'm sure many of our ancestors had similar beliefs. But then they didn't know America existed nevermind the fact that the sun was still shining there after it had set here...

Eratosthenes managed a reasonable estimate of the size over 2000 years ago.

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20 hours ago, dgul said:

He might be right.  I, personally, have seen no direct evidence that the earth is round (although there are volumes of second-hand indirect and independent evidence out there).

If the earth was flat, everywhere in the world would experience day and night at the same time. Anyone who has travelled a reasonable distance will know this is not the case.

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My easy peasy way to prove earth not flat.

All he needs is two* lasers and two high points, about half a mile apart.

Mount laser on first high point , aiming it horizontally at the second high point. He can find horizontal easily. It's normal to vertical, and vertical is simply the direction of a plumb bob.

He should then go to the second high point with his other laser.

He should find the point of impingement of the first laser. Now he should mount his second laser, again aiming horizontally, with the incoming laser striking the origin of the second laser. Directionally, he should aim the second laser at the first high point. It might help to have a friend during both operations to confirm the 'arrival' of the lasers.

In a flat earth scenario, the second laser will arrive at the origin of the first laser.

For an earth with a radius of about 3659 miles, the second laser will 'arrive' about four inches above the first.

If he wants to give me a million, I'll be that 'friend' who helps him aim the things.

_______________________

* one will do providing he doesn't mind arranging a 'pinhole' card where the laser initially 'arrives', so he can go and get it and fire it back through the pinhole (having marked its initial departure point - again with a card with a hole in it), but what he's raised already will buy plenty of lasers.

 

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22 hours ago, Lurkst said:

I'm sure many of our ancestors had similar beliefs. But then they didn't know America existed nevermind the fact that the sun was still shining there after it had set here...

 

Yes.  One of the more reasonable arguments against a flat earth.  Just a phone call will do, really.  I suppose you'd need some kind of code system to make sure that the call hadn't been intercepted and the lizards (choose your own conspiracy) weren't mucking about.

2 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

My easy peasy way to prove earth not flat.

All he needs is two* lasers and two high points, about half a mile apart.

Mount laser on first high point , aiming it horizontally at the second high point. He can find horizontal easily. It's normal to vertical, and vertical is simply the direction of a plumb bob.

He should then go to the second high point with his other laser.

He should find the point of impingement of the first laser. Now he should mount his second laser, again aiming horizontally, with the incoming laser striking the origin of the second laser. Directionally, he should aim the second laser at the first high point. It might help to have a friend during both operations to confirm the 'arrival' of the lasers.

In a flat earth scenario, the second laser will arrive at the origin of the first laser.

For an earth with a radius of about 3659 miles, the second laser will 'arrive' about four inches above the first.

If he wants to give me a million, I'll be that 'friend' who helps him aim the things.

_______________________

* one will do providing he doesn't mind arranging a 'pinhole' card where the laser initially 'arrives', so he can go and get it and fire it back through the pinhole (having marked its initial departure point - again with a card with a hole in it), but what he's raised already will buy plenty of lasers.

 

A reasonable experiment.  The trouble is, most people most of the time don't actually do these experiments.  People might think about them, and not do them (like you), or just take the account of other people doing the experiment.    Hmm, this sounds a bit like religion -- you have faith that others are reporting properly (did that saint really heal all those people) and it is tempting to make up 'experiments' that you don't actually do (if I travel to monastery x a great distance away I'll see God).  For most people, science is a religion.  Even for most scientists -- for whom the best you can do is 'I've seen the scientific theory to be true (well, to accurately predict observation) in my little field, so I assume that the scientific theories are also true in other fields about which I have no expertise. 

And, even then, there are ways to discount your experiment, again, based on the faith that you have in your scientific religion -- eg, how do you know that the gravity vector ('horizontal') is the same in your two locations?  You sure it isn't an atmospheric effect (thermal layers bending the light), etc, etc.  IMO it is really difficult to fully resolve these issues to the satisfaction of someone who really doesn't want to believe your theory (exactly the same as a religious dogma).

Anyway, I'm happy that the world isn't a simple flat thing, as I've phoned people in west Wales and heard that the sun is still setting, even though it has set here (Wiltshire).  I've even travelled to foreign climes and found that my watch is 'wrong' compared to the local position of the sun.  I've tried the whole Foucault pendulum thing, and I think that at I'm at least on a rotating thing (though it might in the end be a flat rotating thing).  I've also seen the old 'can't see the boat' can see the sail' thing, but again, it might be atmospheric.  But, you see, in the end I don't really care, because I actually believe (have faith in) the vast scientific 'knowledge' presented to me about the earth being sphericalish, and if the lizard people are clever enough to keep this 'spherical earth' conspiracy thing going then the fact that I'm mistaken about the round/flatness of the earth is the least of my problems.

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56 minutes ago, dgul said:

And, even then, there are ways to discount your experiment, again, based on the faith that you have in your scientific religion -- eg, how do you know that the gravity vector ('horizontal') is the same in your two locations?  You sure it isn't an atmospheric effect (thermal layers bending the light), etc, etc.  IMO it is really difficult to fully resolve these issues to the satisfaction of someone who really doesn't want to believe your theory (exactly the same as a religious dogma).

 

 

But the gravity vector is not the same. That's the point of a spherical world.

Presumably what you are really asking is "how do you know the gravity vector can't change for a flat world?"

The point is I'm thinking that you haven't bothered to explore this theoretical flat world too much. You'd rather test the spherical one to destruction. A bit like religious apologists.

 

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19 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

But have you for one minute tried to mentally form a world where the gravity vector changes, or considered why the atmosphere would bend the light in one direction but not the other?

I assure you, you will end up with a world that is so convoluted that you can derive little by way of usable rules.

What you will end up with is a world full of one-offs. Scripture has a name for such events: it's miracles. Now who is advocating religious dogma?

The point is most people don't do the experiments, or aren't capable of working through the experimental theory.  Most people just say 'of course gravity works' or 'of course the earth is round'.  This is the aspect where people's faith in science is akin to religion.

You speak of gravity and atmospheric bending of light as though it is an easy thing that people can just work through.  Most can't.  Yet they still believe.

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4 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

Mount laser on first high point , aiming it horizontally at the second high point. He can find horizontal easily. It's normal to vertical, and vertical is simply the direction of a plumb bob.

This wouldn't prove much. The local gravitational field varies in direction  because of density changes. For example, the Greenwich meridian ,marker is in the wrong place because of this; a telescope floating on mercury was used to locate a star. but the telescope wasn't quite pointing vertical.

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I've changed that post you quoted, but I don't mind you retaining it. It's hard to know where to start with stuff like this.

I agree that people should question more.

But science has peer review. Science lays out experimental procedures such that anyone can test results.

To say believing in that system is akin to belief in scripture is clearly disingenuous. Even the day-to-day stuff in religious texts is no more provable than perhaps the legend of King Arthur. Get to the miracles and there is no proof whatsoever, nor can any experiments be conducted to verify the veracity of the tales. There is simply no comparison.

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1 minute ago, Millaise said:

This wouldn't prove much. The local gravitational field varies in direction  because of density changes. For example, the Greenwich meridian is in the wrong place because of this; a telescope floating on mercury was used to locate a star. but the telescope wasn't quite pointing vertical.

Local gravitational variation is <0.01%. have you done the math?

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1 hour ago, Sledgehead said:

Local gravitational variation is <0.01%. have you done the math?

It's surprising that it's detectable at all really, yet the gravitational deflection caused by a Scottish mountain was used to measure the density of the Earth in the 18th century.

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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