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reddog

What is going on in Spain? (Catalonian referendum)

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Spain will lose some power to the Catalans. The Spanish are as happy about that as England is at devolving power to Scotland. Make what you will of that. 

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Catalan will almost certainly vote to separate, given the chance. The sense of independence in the region is very strong as is the support for their football team. Catalan flags hang from most balconies or windows certainly in Barcelona

Spain enacted a law some years ago outlawing independence referendum and therefore will take the legal authority they have to stop disrupt and arrest what they see as troublemakers.

Read yesterday million+ ballot papers had been seized by the State. They cannot and will not allow this referendum to take place. That way opens several cans of worms.

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6 minutes ago, geezer466 said:

Catalan will almost certainly vote to separate, given the chance. The sense of independence in the region is very strong as is the support for their football team. Catalan flags hang from most balconies or windows certainly in Barcelona

Spain enacted a law some years ago outlawing independence referendum and therefore will take the legal authority they have to stop disrupt and arrest what they see as troublemakers.

Read yesterday million+ ballot papers had been seized by the State. They cannot and will not allow this referendum to take place. That way opens several cans of worms.

I'm not am expert on the situation, but that is what I was thinking.  Could be very interesting if you had for example local police refusing to enforce a ban on the referendum vs national police drafted in.

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Catalonia Keeps the Flag Flying: Rallies Continue Ahead of Independence Vote

A number of protests against the policy of Spanish authorities with regard to the preparations for the independence referendum in Catalonia continue across Span's northeastern region on Thursday.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201709211057588197-catalonia-spain-independence-referendum/

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4 hours ago, reddog said:

I'm not am expert on the situation, but that is what I was thinking.  Could be very interesting if you had for example local police refusing to enforce a ban on the referendum vs national police drafted in.

I think Catalunya has it's own police force now under direction of local govt. Correct me if i'm wrong:

Madrid and rest of Spain you have local police, national police and Guardia Civil. In Catalunya national & GC are replaced by the Mossos.

Not sure about Basque country and islands - think GC still in charge there.

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Catalonia police have duties to both the local authorities (controlled by the Catalan Parliament) and the Government in Madrid. Presumably, if they are made to choose, the vast majority will side with their Catalan brethren.

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8 hours ago, Errol said:

Independence-hungry Scottish nationalist leader sends support to Catalonia

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has expressed her solidarity with Catalans fighting for their right to hold an independence referendum, sharing her concern over Spain’s attempts to stop it.

https://www.rt.com/uk/404104-independence-catalonia-spain-sturgeon/

and I think scotland should probably count themselves very lucky...despotism is the default position in europe,and has been for the past 1500 years...as catalonia is now finding out.

it actually makes the british look remarkably civilised.

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4 hours ago, Errol said:

Catalonia police have duties to both the local authorities (controlled by the Catalan Parliament) and the Government in Madrid. Presumably, if they are made to choose, the vast majority will side with their Catalan brethren.

if we are to take that part of their constitution at word.

then catalonia police are subservient to the policia national

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this is such a shame,spain is a lovely country,with lovely people, but it's being ruined by a bunch of power hungry gangsters.....like most EU countries imho.

Nothing against the people, but the leaderships are obsessive moonie-cult followers.

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I don't blame the Catalans. They contribute way more than they get back, unlike Scotland!

Barcelona doesn't feel Spanish. That's probably why I like it so much. The Spanish Govt, like most, are just bullies.

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The hatred between Madrid and Barcelona is insane and goes far beyond any football rivalry. Madrid know they are exposed because it is a boring capital that was built in the middle of a desert purely to be a capital whereas Barcelona is a pretty hip place (apart from the petty crime problem which is completely insane by the way).

I know 2 people from Madrid and they are constantly foaming at the mouth at anything that gives Catalonians attention. It really drives them up the wall.

A very clear majority of Catalans say they want a referendum which is impossible by current methods because the other regions will not want to lose the money.

Peoples, culture and government could be debated until the cows come home but the Catalans do have a reasonable case that they are distinct from the other Spaniards.

Independence movements take a long time and the Catalonians seem to have made a big step forward here but goading the Spanish government in to internet censorship etc. which will only harm their case. They might not get independence this round but it feels like they've taken a step forward.

My friend lives in Gracia which is one of the most nationalist parts of the city. He says it's actually a bit scary. While watching the events on TV they often erupt into grabbing all the pots and pans in the kitchen and hitting them as hard as they can. There is real trouble brewing due to many communists (some weird history) getting ready to travel to Barcelona to cause trouble.

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3 hours ago, cica said:

There is real trouble brewing due to many communists (some weird history) getting ready to travel to Barcelona to cause trouble.

The republicans, seen by many to be the good guys in comparison with the nationalists. But that's not entirely a true interpretation of the history of the Civil War.

They did attract a mix of anarchists and communists, anti royalists and anti Church. All with their own agenda.

Backed up by Stalin's tanks on the streets of Spain.

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14 hours ago, cica said:

The hatred between Madrid and Barcelona is insane and goes far beyond any football rivalry.

Ironically if the Catalans vote for independence Real and Barca won't need to play each other any more.

It would possibly kill Barcelona as a global superclub in the long term, although Catalunya would have a strong international side.

 

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On 25/09/2017 at 4:04 AM, ExiledMatty said:

I don't blame the Catalans. They contribute way more than they get back, unlike Scotland!

Barcelona doesn't feel Spanish. That's probably why I like it so much. The Spanish Govt, like most, are just bullies.

With your attitude, every micro-region that contributes more to the macro-regions should go independent. Who wants to share wealth anyway, let the poor eat dirt. Next, London, am I right?

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

With your attitude, every micro-region that contributes more to the macro-regions should go independent. Who wants to share wealth anyway, let the poor eat dirt. Next, London, am I right?

You make a good point looking at the principles of the situation but we aren't talking about a micro-region here. It's already a largely self-governing political entity with it's own language and culture that sits at an geographic extremity of an existing country.

Perhaps Catalonia is actually doing Andalusia no favours by subsidising the existing economic and political status-quo and they should feel more financial pressure to change for the better themselves.

The Spanish government are certainly bullies though - look at Gibraltar. I do appreciate the case for returning Gibraltar to Spain but they really do some stupid stuff just trying to stir up trouble sometimes.

Also, remember Catalonia could not have hoped to have done anything about this situation before because until 1975 they were run by dictator in the true sense of the word.

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3 minutes ago, cica said:

Perhaps Catalonia is actually doing Andalusia no favours by subsidising the existing economic and political status-quo and they should feel more financial pressure to change for the better themselves.

This is the standard argument from people who favour more artificial boundaries in the world. We're not selfish, we actually want to do you a favour by keeping the wealth and setting you free to earn your own. 

Somehow I'm not convinced.

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

This is the standard argument from people who favour more artificial boundaries in the world. We're not selfish, we actually want to do you a favour by keeping the wealth and setting you free to earn your own. 

Somehow I'm not convinced.

Artificial boundaries? It's Spain that is obsessed by borders - fences in North Africa, making threats to Gibraltar about the current border, making threats that Catalonia and Scotland might not be allowed in the EU. I'm sure Catalonia just wants a simple life.

I really do appreciate the value of some socialism.

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5 hours ago, dugsbody said:

This is the standard argument from people who favour more artificial boundaries in the world. 

Anyone who is realistic will understand that 'artificial boundaries' are absolutely essential. Unless, that is, you are happy for 200 million sub-Saharan Africans to horde into Europe?

Also, I presume you have no issue with me moving into your house/garden/property etc, as really your 'ownership' is nothing more than an artificial construct/boundary. 

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17 hours ago, Lurkst said:

Ironically if the Catalans vote for independence Real and Barca won't need to play each other any more.

It would possibly kill Barcelona as a global superclub in the long term, although Catalunya would have a strong international side.

 

I went to see a Barcelona game as a tourist, to be honest the hype around Barcelona being some sort of spiritual place for football is BS, the place was full of tourists like me!

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5 hours ago, Errol said:

Anyone who is realistic will understand that 'artificial boundaries' are absolutely essential. Unless, that is, you are happy for 200 million sub-Saharan Africans to horde into Europe?

Also, I presume you have no issue with me moving into your house/garden/property etc, as really your 'ownership' is nothing more than an artificial construct/boundary. 

Ah, I did this one already. I think the next part is where you explain to me why people from Huddersfield shouldn't be allowed to move to London and steal our jobs. 

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As pointed out on another thread, if a region gains independence they don't just walk off into the sun, they will still get saddled with a share of the national debt accrued to date, which will put their development on hold. Maybe a good idea to cancel those extra bank holidays that some politician would have promised!

I'm surprised the world's Elite rulers and bankers aren't onto this, or maybe they are: national debt $800 billion, let's get behind this devolution thing and we can then 'package' it - split the debt up into say four regions at 200 billion each. Looks a lot better now, and no-one knows who the hell owes who what. :D

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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