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Number of High St shoppers fall 22% since 2007

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Have they just noticed?

Outside of the large, regional shopping Meccas, the rest are like some sort of Zombie film - aimless shuffling around by people who have no money.

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24 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Have they just noticed?

Outside of the large, regional shopping Meccas, the rest are like some sort of Zombie film - aimless shuffling around by people who have no money.

Not shuffling 'round here mate in the effluent  affluent south, whizzing about on mobility scooters

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Have they just noticed?

Outside of the large, regional shopping Meccas, the rest are like some sort of Zombie film - aimless shuffling around by people who have no money.

Some of the towns I have been in recently are now converting shops to flats !!!!

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50 minutes ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

Some of the towns I have been in recently are now converting shops to flats !!!!

 Most are converting them to OAP flats.

UKs going to go down like a brick.

 

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3 hours ago, reddog said:

Number of High St shoppers fall 22% since 2007

https://www.retailappointment.co.uk/news/number-of-high-street-shoppers-fall-by-22-since-2007

 

It looks like the future has already arrived.

One of the most interesting things is, we are actually behind the US with regard to online shopping.

Oh dear. Imagine when everyone shops from Amazon because they've destroyed the competition and the government collects very little tax from the online megalith tax avoiders. No money to pay for social care, education or the NHS but at least shoppers can get things 10% cheaper from Amazon!

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One small Derbyshire town I'm familiar with has certainly bucked that trend... 5 years ago it was mostly empty/charity/pound shops, a typical northern mill town.

 

Now the high street has been taken over by a whole range of pretentious 'emporium' type shops selling all manner of overpriced shite that no one actually needs and every kind of 'artisan' food and beverage outlet imaginable, even the number of dog grooming parlours have exploded, from one that was barely ever open, to five now!

 

Local house prices have also shot up in the last 2-3 years after being pretty much stagnant since 2008.

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2 minutes ago, nome said:

One small Derbyshire town I'm familiar with has certainly bucked that trend... 5 years ago it was mostly empty/charity/pound shops, a typical northern mill town.

 

Now the high street has been taken over by a whole range of pretentious 'emporium' type shops selling all manner of overpriced shite that no one actually needs and every kind of 'artisan' food and beverage outlet imaginable, even the number of dog grooming parlours have exploded, from one that was barely ever open, to five now!

 

Local house prices have also shot up in the last 2-3 years after being pretty much stagnant since 2008.

Somewhere touristy (or at least on the periphery of touristy)?

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2 minutes ago, nome said:

One small Derbyshire town I'm familiar with has certainly bucked that trend... 5 years ago it was mostly empty/charity/pound shops, a typical northern mill town.

 

Now the high street has been taken over by a whole range of pretentious 'emporium' type shops selling all manner of overpriced shite that no one actually needs and every kind of 'artisan' food and beverage outlet imaginable, even the number of dog grooming parlours have exploded, from one that was barely ever open, to five now!

 

Local house prices have also shot up in the last 2-3 years after being pretty much stagnant since 2008.

I think you'll find that even in "prosperous" London, most of the shops are charity shops, estate agents and coffee chains. There are certainly more charity shops than anything else! Nobody has the money to buy from emporium type shops - they have to charge 50% more for all their crap due to high rents and high rates. Just imagine if the rents on these premises weren't so high, they would have more sales, be able to hire more staff etc and probably pay more tax but it is better for the landowners to make passive income from the hardworking than to have a proper, functioning economy.

Edited by fru-gal

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25 minutes ago, fru-gal said:

I think you'll find that even in "prosperous" London, most of the shops are charity shops, estate agents and coffee chains. There are certainly more charity shops than anything else! Nobody has the money to buy from emporium type shops - they have to charge 50% more for all their crap due to high rents and high rates. Just imagine if the rents on these premises weren't so high, they would have more sales, be able to hire more staff etc and probably pay more tax but it is better for the landowners to make passive income from the hardworking than to have a proper, functioning economy.

Blaming the landlords for the rents is like blaming a ship's Captain for the height of the tide. The government is fully to blame, and it is supported by the populace.

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52 minutes ago, nome said:

One small Derbyshire town I'm familiar with has certainly bucked that trend... 5 years ago it was mostly empty/charity/pound shops, a typical northern mill town.

 

Now the high street has been taken over by a whole range of pretentious 'emporium' type shops selling all manner of overpriced shite that no one actually needs and every kind of 'artisan' food and beverage outlet imaginable, even the number of dog grooming parlours have exploded, from one that was barely ever open, to five now!

 

Local house prices have also shot up in the last 2-3 years after being pretty much stagnant since 2008.

Im going to be shouted down for being a single issue poster .... but all those emporiums and grooming is all down to self employed tax credits.

cup cake shops.

dog grroming

home baked dog treats

up cycling furniture shops

fudge

etc etc etc

 

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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Im going to be shouted down for being a single issue poster .... but all those emporiums and grooming is all down to self employed tax credits.

cup cake shops.

dog grroming

home baked dog treats

up cycling furniture shops

fudge

etc etc etc

 

Nail parlours and tanning shops here....

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3 minutes ago, Option5 said:

Nail parlours and tanning shops here....

The nail parlours i see - i think the  small town of ~30k i visited had 5, count them! - are mainly occupied by Chinese/Asian.

At least 2 of them have been busted for people smuggling.

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Went to a local "fair" type thing. Several of the stallholders said that they wouldn't rent a shop. Too expensive, and if successful landlord hikes the rent. IIRC charity shops pay low/no rates. So the government taxes the small shopkeeper, while letting multinationals pay little in tax. Remember that program "The town that took on the taxman" showed how many tax dodges there were for those with the skill/knowledge to do it. Can't link to torrent on here for copyright reasons.

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10 minutes ago, mowlem said:

Went to a local "fair" type thing. Several of the stallholders said that they wouldn't rent a shop. Too expensive, and if successful landlord hikes the rent. IIRC charity shops pay low/no rates. So the government taxes the small shopkeeper, while letting multinationals pay little in tax. Remember that program "The town that took on the taxman" showed how many tax dodges there were for those with the skill/knowledge to do it. Can't link to torrent on here for copyright reasons.

No.

Small and large will both pay rent and rates. The tax doges are nothing of the sort and and down to transfer pricing.

Small operators do worse as they are typically one man band companies negotiating with profession LLs and their agents.

UK commercial leases are insane nuts and you'd have to be certifiable to  sign one.

Big cos only do better as they can threten to bring down the LL or get free rent.

Look at large reguonal shopping centres - companies like John Lewis are virtually paid to take on anchor store.

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1 hour ago, nome said:

One small Derbyshire town I'm familiar with has certainly bucked that trend... 5 years ago it was mostly empty/charity/pound shops, a typical northern mill town.

 

Now the high street has been taken over by a whole range of pretentious 'emporium' type shops selling all manner of overpriced shite that no one actually needs and every kind of 'artisan' food and beverage outlet imaginable, even the number of dog grooming parlours have exploded, from one that was barely ever open, to five now!

 

Local house prices have also shot up in the last 2-3 years after being pretty much stagnant since 2008.

Similar where I live except I'm slightly more positive about it given my wife owns one of the "pretentious, artisan" businesses and does quite well out of it.

Bottom line; market towns face a choice. Keep chasing after the "big" retailers who are all going on line or get with the program and understand that people don't want to have to lug their 50 inch telly to the car from Dixon's when someone will deliver it instead. 

People will always want to come into town for the afternoon if there's something there to occupy them. Given that shopping as we knew it is moving on line, "quirky" independents offering stuff you can't get online (antiques, handicrafts, stuff you puck up and buy on a whim, having a beer/coffee with mates) need to move in and occupy that space and Yes, that means cafes, restaurants, micropub s and "pretentious artisan" places. 

The alternative is empty shops which are all owned by real estate investment trusts whose valuation of the property is based on its notional rent not the income it brings in. Most of these guys have realised the jigs up for old style shopping centres and high streets but have half of Europe's pensions invested in them and can't devalue their assets for fear of pissing off their clients so property stays empty rather than being let out at a reasonable price. 

The end game for these guys is basically turning the places into granny flats as that's the only way they can see of keeping the value in the asset and not causing a scandal. 

Fortunately, some Councils have cottoned onto this risk and are doing what they can to try and keep town centres as public spaces. It's no surprise that property values have gone up near you; people like having amenities near them. Not rocket science to be honest, good on whoever's working to try and keep your town centre alive. 

Or would you prefer a town centre dominated by elderly people with no amenities where all the jobs dry up because no-one under the age of 50 is interested in living there and the place basically shricrls and dies? I know which vision of the future I prefer. 

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5 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Similar where I live except I'm slightly more positive about it given my wife owns one of the "pretentious, artisan" businesses and does quite well out of it.

Bottom line; market towns face a choice. Keep chasing after the "big" retailers who are all going on line or get with the program and understand that people don't want to have to lug their 50 inch telly to the car from Dixon's when someone will deliver it instead. 

People will always want to come into town for the afternoon if there's something there to occupy them. Given that shopping as we knew it is moving on line, "quirky" independents offering stuff you can't get online (antiques, handicrafts, stuff you puck up and buy on a whim, having a beer/coffee with mates) need to move in and occupy that space and Yes, that means cafes, restaurants, micropub s and "pretentious artisan" places. 

The alternative is empty shops which are all owned by real estate investment trusts whose valuation of the property is based on its notional rent not the income it brings in. Most of these guys have realised the jigs up for old style shopping centres and high streets but have half of Europe's pensions invested in them and can't devalue their assets for fear of pissing off their clients so property stays empty rather than being let out at a reasonable price. 

The end game for these guys is basically turning the places into granny flats as that's the only way they can see of keeping the value in the asset and not causing a scandal. 

Fortunately, some Councils have cottoned onto this risk and are doing what they can to try and keep town centres as public spaces. It's no surprise that property values have gone up near you; people like having amenities near them. Not rocket science to be honest, good on whoever's working to try and keep your town centre alive. 

Or would you prefer a town centre dominated by elderly people with no amenities where all the jobs dry up because no-one under the age of 50 is interested in living there and the place basically shricrls and dies? I know which vision of the future I prefer. 

Good point, hadn't thought of it like that...

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8 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Similar where I live except I'm slightly more positive about it given my wife owns one of the "pretentious, artisan" businesses and does quite well out of it.

Bottom line; market towns face a choice. Keep chasing after the "big" retailers who are all going on line or get with the program and understand that people don't want to have to lug their 50 inch telly to the car from Dixon's when someone will deliver it instead. 

People will always want to come into town for the afternoon if there's something there to occupy them. Given that shopping as we knew it is moving on line, "quirky" independents offering stuff you can't get online (antiques, handicrafts, stuff you puck up and buy on a whim, having a beer/coffee with mates) need to move in and occupy that space and Yes, that means cafes, restaurants, micropub s and "pretentious artisan" places. 

The alternative is empty shops which are all owned by real estate investment trusts whose valuation of the property is based on its notional rent not the income it brings in. Most of these guys have realised the jigs up for old style shopping centres and high streets but have half of Europe's pensions invested in them and can't devalue their assets for fear of pissing off their clients so property stays empty rather than being let out at a reasonable price. 

The end game for these guys is basically turning the places into granny flats as that's the only way they can see of keeping the value in the asset and not causing a scandal. 

Fortunately, some Councils have cottoned onto this risk and are doing what they can to try and keep town centres as public spaces. It's no surprise that property values have gone up near you; people like having amenities near them. Not rocket science to be honest, good on whoever's working to try and keep your town centre alive. 

Or would you prefer a town centre dominated by elderly people with no amenities where all the jobs dry up because no-one under the age of 50 is interested in living there and the place basically shricrls and dies? I know which vision of the future I prefer. 

Fair play to your wife if she is managing to stand on her own 2 feet, earn a living and pay taxes by selling artisan cupcakes or whatever it is she's flogging... but I agree with Spyguy that the majority of these types of businesses only exist because they're probably subsidised by their owners claiming WTC's and other associated benefits.

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9 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Similar where I live except I'm slightly more positive about it given my wife owns one of the "pretentious, artisan" businesses and does quite well out of it.

Bottom line; market towns face a choice. Keep chasing after the "big" retailers who are all going on line or get with the program and understand that people don't want to have to lug their 50 inch telly to the car from Dixon's when someone will deliver it instead. 

People will always want to come into town for the afternoon if there's something there to occupy them. Given that shopping as we knew it is moving on line, "quirky" independents offering stuff you can't get online (antiques, handicrafts, stuff you puck up and buy on a whim, having a beer/coffee with mates) need to move in and occupy that space and Yes, that means cafes, restaurants, micropub s and "pretentious artisan" places.

How many of those are supportable? They're not everday purchases, things you'll go in to town once a week for.

If you do get enough people turning up do they help support more traditional shops - may as well pick up a pint of milk and loaf of bread whilst you're there, don't have to pop in to the supermarket too.

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2 hours ago, fru-gal said:

Oh dear. Imagine when everyone shops from Amazon because they've destroyed the competition and the government collects very little tax from the online megalith tax avoiders. No money to pay for social care, education or the NHS but at least shoppers can get things 10% cheaper from Amazon!

They will then place a uk turnover tax on them.

for example I have my business rates assessed at a % of fair maintainable trade

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41 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Similar where I live except I'm slightly more positive about it given my wife owns one of the "pretentious, artisan" businesses and does quite well out of it.

Bottom line; market towns face a choice. Keep chasing after the "big" retailers who are all going on line or get with the program and understand that people don't want to have to lug their 50 inch telly to the car from Dixon's when someone will deliver it instead. 

People will always want to come into town for the afternoon if there's something there to occupy them. Given that shopping as we knew it is moving on line, "quirky" independents offering stuff you can't get online (antiques, handicrafts, stuff you puck up and buy on a whim, having a beer/coffee with mates) need to move in and occupy that space and Yes, that means cafes, restaurants, micropub s and "pretentious artisan" places. 

The alternative is empty shops which are all owned by real estate investment trusts whose valuation of the property is based on its notional rent not the income it brings in. Most of these guys have realised the jigs up for old style shopping centres and high streets but have half of Europe's pensions invested in them and can't devalue their assets for fear of pissing off their clients so property stays empty rather than being let out at a reasonable price. 

The end game for these guys is basically turning the places into granny flats as that's the only way they can see of keeping the value in the asset and not causing a scandal. 

Fortunately, some Councils have cottoned onto this risk and are doing what they can to try and keep town centres as public spaces. It's no surprise that property values have gone up near you; people like having amenities near them. Not rocket science to be honest, good on whoever's working to try and keep your town centre alive. 

Or would you prefer a town centre dominated by elderly people with no amenities where all the jobs dry up because no-one under the age of 50 is interested in living there and the place basically shricrls and dies? I know which vision of the future I prefer. 

No.

Most retail real estate is owned by UK life companies.

As well as distorting investment via endowments (made up returns) theyve distorted most town's commercial real estate.

They keep stuff empty to avoid having to mark the rent down, and the investment return, which would see them declared insolvent.

 

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20 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

How many of those are supportable? They're not everday purchases, things you'll go in to town once a week for.

If you do get enough people turning up do they help support more traditional shops - may as well pick up a pint of milk and loaf of bread whilst you're there, don't have to pop in to the supermarket too.

Define "supportable"? Can only speak for my wife's place (not cupcakes but don't want to self dox so won't give further details) but there's absolutely zero benefits claimed in our household beyond child benefit (which is not income related). No council grants or anything either. The business washes it's face and more. 

There are "pop up" places where the space is paid for 6 months by the council with the option to wind up or take on the lease after though and yes a lot of these fail (a majority of start ups do). 

Where my wife's gaff is though, the row of 3 shops had been empty for 4 or 5 years and were in a shit state since high street names left. Since the boom in independent places though they are all now rennovated and let out to established businesses. One of which is, you guessed it, a Vietnamese nail salon:). 

Stopped the flow of retirement flats creeping up the street nicely. 

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  • 292 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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