Some boomers get it!

[Guest]

Talking to father-in-law on saturday, who was visiting without his partner of 10 years.

He was delighted to have found a decent bike for my daughter in a second hand shop for £30, he said people who buy cars on finance are insane (gave the example of his friend paying £400 pm over 3 years for a Nissan Cashcow). Also slated his partner's new kitchen, which is costing £2k ... for just the recessed spot lights!

Admittedly he doesn't always get just how tough things are for FTBs to buy, but he is very sound on every other level

[Funn3r]

As a boomer myself I am feeling slightly triggered here... I'm not exactly skint but not going on cruises either. Must say I'd feel much the same way as your FIL about the above.

Friend just spent 20K on a new kitchen. I mean it's just bits of chipboard when you really come down to it. Got a ten year guarantee though - which is not worth anything as the company has now gone out of business. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

As a boomer myself I am feeling slightly triggered here... I'm not exactly skint but not going on cruises either. Must say I'd feel much the same way as your FIL about the above.

Friend just spent 20K on a new kitchen. I mean it's just bits of chipboard when you really come down to it. Got a ten year guarantee though - which is not worth anything as the company has now gone out of business. 

I'm surrounded by boomers who don't get it (and flaunt their wealth) so it is nice to find one on my side

[sPinwheel]

A poor boomer?

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

1 hour ago, Grab_Some_Popcorn said:

I'm surrounded by boomers who don't get it (and flaunt their wealth) so it is nice to find one on my side

So he can see that two things he might buy himself cost too much (car, kitchen) but not how something he won't need to buy (a house) would be.

Sounds pretty typical to me. 

[winkie]

Some just don't get it, saying things like they used to go without to save up to buy a house......so today as soon as you can save £5000 a year after everything else, home prices have gone up £10000 plus!!!!! Forever swimming backwards, even if not wasteful with money..... today's saving interest rates compared to thirty odd years ago is peanuts, also wages today stay the same, often not even rising with inflation, whereas not that unusual to get a 9% pay rise.....only MPs and a few others that are worth it get that these days.

Edited September 11, 2017 by winkie

[nightowl]

There are a few boomers that fully grasp the problem (I repeat a few, a I guess that includes a few on here!).

There's a middle ground though where they see it's hard for FTBs and the younger generations but(ok maybe limited to their own children) but cant reconcile their relative financial comfort is at their expense. 

[winkie]

2 minutes ago, nightowl said:

There are a few boomers that fully grasp the problem (I repeat a few, a I guess that includes a few on here!).

There's a middle ground though where they see it's hard for FTBs and the younger generations but(ok maybe limited to their own children) but cant reconcile their relative financial comfort is at their expense. 

There are as many different 'boomers' as younger people say the millennials......some gift, some spend, some save, some rent, some work some don't....but as they say there are no pockets in shrouds so anything that they do hold will be passed on as taxes or to the next generations.....when that happens the recipients could be boomers themselves.

[nightowl]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

There are as many different 'boomers' as younger people say the millennials......some gift, some spend, some save, some rent, some work some don't....but as they say there are no pockets in shrouds so anything that they do hold will be passed on as taxes or to the next generations.....when that happens the recipients could be boomers themselves.

Indeed there are different boomers, millenials and a few gen X hiding somewhere, and yes some asset wealth will pass down through these generations.  The problem is the inheritors will see the benefit of overinflated house prices too late in their lives to be meaningful, while in the meantime struggling to raise a family of their own while servicing their own mortgage debt or unsecure renting, and some in London and the SE losing some of this transfer in tax too.

 

[Untoward]

31 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Indeed there are different boomers, millenials and a few gen X hiding somewhere, and yes some asset wealth will pass down through these generations.  The problem is the inheritors will see the benefit of overinflated house prices too late in their lives to be meaningful, while in the meantime struggling to raise a family of their own while servicing their own mortgage debt or unsecure renting, and some in London and the SE losing some of this transfer in tax too.

 

This

[steve99]

14 hours ago, sPinwheel said:

A poor boomer?

Most are. Only the richest 20% are seen or/and heard. Most live in the cheap end of town, drive knakcered cars and shop at aldi's, most spent a lot of money on their kids problems or got ill quite early in life, most dont have big company pensions and most got thrown out of their real jobs by mid 50;s at best.  Im one of them, dito my other half and most of my friends (the ones still alive that is) and relatives.  Only know 2 people in my entire existence that got through work with one or two jobs and a real pension and one was a teacher and the other a civil servant.  I know more genX in fact who have had much bigger lives (financially speaking) than any boomer,  one couple (inlaws)in London retired last year at age 49, had bought their house for £120k and sold circa £1mill, and yet they actually believed it was their hard work which made their house price go up. . Dito couple same age in Sydney, similar set up. No diff between generations re attitude, if you get lucky early in life you believe it was your own hard work and good judgement if not then stiff shit, some gen x-y will inherrit a fortune if this HPInflation carries on and when they do they will not want house prices to drop and will consider it their hard won and earned right to such riches.

[steve99]

8 hours ago, nightowl said:

There are a few boomers that fully grasp the problem (I repeat a few, a I guess that includes a few on here!).

There's a middle ground though where they see it's hard for FTBs and the younger generations but(ok maybe limited to their own children) but cant reconcile their relative financial comfort is at their expense. 

The fact that younger gens, ie Y cannot get into the same position as so called boomers or gen x is nothing to do with the fact that earlier generations got houses if they worked and saved for them, nor if in fact they got lucky with jobs and pensions. It is purely based on the political dogma which we have been inflicted with, ie neo liberalism which believes in the trickle down effect (even though we all know it is now trickle up) and believes in the 'market will provide' which we know know it does not as there is no such thing as competitive markets when it comes to many markets (eg housing) .

The propaganda machinery of neo liberalism (extreme right wing economics in fact) is as big as anything the nazi's or Russian communists put out with massive daily servings of crap from the likes of the Daily Mail, express, the Murdoch press and half the TV' programs filling heads with 'benefit scroungers'  and 'lots of work for those who want it'  interspersed with get rich property porn, so no wonder the average ageing boomer cant work it out. Younger people neither with the absolutely massive routine of 'bread and circus' culture that surrounds them.

The real beneficiaries of the despondent millenials dont pay tax, live the high life and stash everything away in offshore tax havens and no doubt play golf with tory (and some Labour) politicians.

Edited September 12, 2017 by steve99

[Locke]

6 hours ago, steve99 said:

there is no such thing as competitive markets when it comes to many markets (eg housing) .

 

In a natural free market, there is. You would be amazed at the speed at which a free market corrects price imbalances.

When there is even the slightest bit of government interference, the market is no longer free. The housing market today is almost entirely controlled by the State, which is why it is so artificial and stagnant.

[winkie]

13 hours ago, nightowl said:

Indeed there are different boomers, millenials and a few gen X hiding somewhere, and yes some asset wealth will pass down through these generations.  The problem is the inheritors will see the benefit of overinflated house prices too late in their lives to be meaningful, while in the meantime struggling to raise a family of their own while servicing their own mortgage debt or unsecure renting, and some in London and the SE losing some of this transfer in tax too.

 

Perhaps if they can should pass on to own children before they die......skip a generation?

[Slimline]

9 minutes ago, Locke said:

 

In a natural free market, there is. You would be amazed at the speed at which a free market corrects price imbalances.

When there is even the slightest bit of government interference, the market is no longer free. The housing market today is almost entirely controlled by the State, which is why it is so artificial and stagnant.

This is how i see it these days. Government interference is key to the plate spinning and they'd stop at nothing to limit any downside.

[GrizzlyDave]

My parents got an interest free loan from their employer in the early 70's. Nice to have with inflation at 20%

Edited September 12, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[steve99]

51 minutes ago, Locke said:

 

In a natural free market, there is. You would be amazed at the speed at which a free market corrects price imbalances.

When there is even the slightest bit of government interference, the market is no longer free. The housing market today is almost entirely controlled by the State, which is why it is so artificial and stagnant.

But not land bankers? big building companies who have made more money by buy and hold on land than in supplying houses, or their habit of drip feeding the market and as all builders do the same (even though they are in competition) they behave more like a cartel.   This anti-competitive behavior is not controlled by government and in fact I suggest it NEEDS government interference, ie taxes on held land, time limits on development and so on.   Dont hold your breath on a truely capitalistic competitive market, I haven't seen it yet when it comes to housing.  Just lucky we have an NHS and not the 'competitive'  US health market to deal with.   In fact with housing the only way builders would get competitive is if the government started mass building of council houses like in the 50's (pre this low waged workers lived in slums)

[stuckin2up2down]

I know a poor boomer. Her car was two years old when she got it and she couldn't afford a balcony room on the winter cruise. That's relative poverty and Brown would try to get some tax credits in there.

Any boomer that says they aren't rich, just compare their life to someone a few generations younger who made the exact same decisions in life and see that they are much richer.

Edited September 12, 2017 by stuckin2up2down
Added Brown

[Riedquat]

50 minutes ago, steve99 said:

But not land bankers? big building companies who have made more money by buy and hold on land than in supplying houses, or their habit of drip feeding the market and as all builders do the same (even though they are in competition) they behave more like a cartel.   This anti-competitive behavior is not controlled by government and in fact I suggest it NEEDS government interference, ie taxes on held land, time limits on development and so on.   Dont hold your breath on a truely capitalistic competitive market, I haven't seen it yet when it comes to housing.  Just lucky we have an NHS and not the 'competitive'  US health market to deal with.   In fact with housing the only way builders would get competitive is if the government started mass building of council houses like in the 50's (pre this low waged workers lived in slums)

Quite. There's no such thing as a free market because anyone with any clout will always be able to manipulate it, whether they're a government, big business, or wealthy individual. And remove all of those and they'll reform in time. There's a funamental contradiction in the whole free market idea, that people who are free to use it won't also use that freedom to manipulate it and stop it being a free market, but any attempt at resisting that manipulation itself also means it's not wholly free. Thus the whole concept is flawed, at least at the extreme.

[iamnumerate]

8 hours ago, steve99 said:

The fact that younger gens, ie Y cannot get into the same position as so called boomers or gen x is nothing to do with the fact that earlier generations got houses if they worked and saved for them, nor if in fact they got lucky with jobs and pensions. It is purely based on the political dogma which we have been inflicted with, ie neo liberalism which believes in the trickle down effect (even though we all know it is now trickle up) and believes in the 'market will provide' which we know know it does not as there is no such thing as competitive markets when it comes to many markets (eg housing) .

The propaganda machinery of neo liberalism (extreme right wing economics in fact) is as big as anything the nazi's or Russian communists put out with massive daily servings of crap from the likes of the Daily Mail, express, the Murdoch press and half the TV' programs filling heads with 'benefit scroungers'  and 'lots of work for those who want it'  interspersed with get rich property porn, so no wonder the average ageing boomer cant work it out. Younger people neither with the absolutely massive routine of 'bread and circus' culture that surrounds them.

The real beneficiaries of the despondent millenials dont pay tax, live the high life and stash everything away in offshore tax havens and no doubt play golf with tory (and some Labour) politicians.

Neoliberalism may have many flaws.  However it believes in free markets, which is certainly not the case when it comes to housing in the UK.  In a free market I would not pay taxes for single parents I know to live in relative luxury doing nothing whilst I work and don't have such nice housing.

[steve99]

49 minutes ago, stuckin2up2down said:

I know a poor boomer. Her car was two years old when she got it and she couldn't afford a balcony room on the winter cruise. That's relative poverty and Brown would try to get some tax credits in there.

Any boomer that says they aren't rich, just compare their life to someone a few generations younger who made the exact same decisions in life and see that they are much richer.

I dont completely  agree,  Most so called millenials.( I dont believe in distinct, homogeneous generations by the way) have had a much better education, health benefits, nicer housing (ie central heating, inside toilet ), nicer holidays ie, not just a day at Blackpool or indeed the very well off got a week at Butlins FFSake. and did not get the cane on a daily basis at school, where by the way we used to sit there freezing cold most of the year.  They were also begat to parents who actually wanted them as opposed to people living in poverty being inflicted with babies (as per the 1950's) so were bought up to be liked rather than just tolerated.  (this is the experience of most of my age peers)

Many gen Y's and the vast majority of gen x are in their own houses now but not in the SE of UK otherwise are not much worse off than previous gens.. I have rels in Scotland (my wifes side) and the north of England (my side) who are buying their houses in late 20's doing normal jobs, not super jobs as per London town and the SE.

Older people go on more holidays now than in previous decades for the same reason young people go on foreign holidays frequently, ie it is much much cheaper than pre the 1980's.   Just like cars,  lots of young people in newer cars,  we bought 10 year old cars when we were 20 years old which needed welding and bogging up every year for MOT'S . Cars and material goods are far far cheaper today.    I would happily swap with the average 20 year old what I had for what they have.

I do agree however that for half the country and near big cities houses are well over priced and jobs are less secure but worse, we now have the whole political class working for the rich and powerful and most certainly not for the people and this is what needs to be perused by younger generations .

[sPinwheel]

42 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Quite. There's no such thing as a free market because anyone with any clout will always be able to manipulate it, whether they're a government, big business, or wealthy individual. And remove all of those and they'll reform in time. There's a funamental contradiction in the whole free market idea, that people who are free to use it won't also use that freedom to manipulate it and stop it being a free market, but any attempt at resisting that manipulation itself also means it's not wholly free. Thus the whole concept is flawed, at least at the extreme.

Indeed, in the long term it actually seems to stifle healthy competition.

[Locke]

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

  This anti-competitive behavior is not controlled by government

Yes, it is. There are never ending regulations on what you can and cannot do, and the creation of those regulations is determined by the biggest players. We also have ZIRP, NIRP and all other financials evils, inflicted by the government, which enables all this debt ********.

We're like a group of people who have lived adrift on a raft at sea for so long that we have forgotten what the land is like and statements like "people can't run for more than 30 yards" actually make twisted sense.

You get nonsense like this

41 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

There's no such thing as a free market because anyone with any clout will always be able to manipulate it

With no basis, no argumentation, nothing. 

Less than one in a thousand people seem to be able to grasp that the fabric of their social existence is totally predicated upon an overarching (yet totally illusory) violent power structure.

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

Dont hold your breath on a truely capitalistic competitive market

No, absolutely not. That will only happen when enough people in the population wake up and see politics for what it is and we are a long way off from that.

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

Just lucky we have an NHS and not the 'competitive'  US health market to deal with

See again, you are on a raft mentality. The US healthcare market is totally dominated and control by the US Gov. It is not competitive, except for who can get the biggest pork barrels out of the government. Even so, it beats the snot out of the Canadian system and many people actually travel from Canada to get basic emergency treatment which they would have to wait months for in Canada.

The NHS is on its last legs anyway, so it's not even sustainable, even if it were effective.

[Locke]

2 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

Indeed, in the long term it actually seems to stifle healthy competition.

How would you know? Look at postwar Germany to see what relaxing government interference can do. I think this has a brief summary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ-fQmmgtDo

[Riedquat]

48 minutes ago, Locke said:

You get nonsense like this

With no basis, no argumentation, nothing.

Nonsense? You seriously believe that no-one will attempt to manipulate a free market (should there ever be one), or that no-one will be able to? The basis is entirely basic human behaviour that you can witness at all scales, all over the world, everywhere, all the time. You've certainly completely failed to offer anything to contradict it. "Waah, that's nonsense" doesn't count.

You can certainly have markets that are more free than we've currently got, and they may work better too, but believing that a completely free market is even possible is ridiculous. Ask yourself how we got in to the position we're in now, and how you'd prevent that from happening again without the sort of interference that stops it being free.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Riedquat