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Si1

Tory boom and bust

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10 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Sounds like you've fallen out of love with the Tories Si1, didn't you vote for them at the 2017 general election?

I voted lib dem 2015, couldn't vote Tory because of Cameron's hpi propping. Voted Tory 2017 because they delivered on section 20 (or whatever it was for brexit) and I couldn't argue with that.

I'm centre right, but the Tories don't always follow their own professed ideology.

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3 hours ago, Si1 said:

I voted lib dem 2015, couldn't vote Tory because of Cameron's hpi propping. Voted Tory 2017 because they delivered on section 20 (or whatever it was for brexit) and I couldn't argue with that.

I'm centre right, but the Tories don't always follow their own professed ideology.

Tbf the boom has been a bit South centric, for the northern property market we have reversed in real terms since 2010. Equity market too no great shakes compared to previous decades, as too GDP.

The only boom has been in public sector debt keeping Brown's boom and his tripling of house prices together to prevent a depression and the banks sinking.

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4 hours ago, Si1 said:

I'm centre right, but the Tories don't always follow their own professed ideology.

They don't ever follow the ideology. There are all sorts of, often regressive, hidden taxes and tariffs; then they subsidize landlords through housing benefit and subsidize house sellers with "help to buy". Another example is government bonds  which provide welfare for corporates. Money ploughed into these zero-risk investments means that it isn't going into anything productive so they are positively harmful. They are useful for pensions for the elderly when people do need zero risk, but maybe the government should just be the pension provider.

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Yes, how can anyone CONSERVE their wealth? The CONSERVatives are in power (just!) and interest rates are at record lows. The Tories should be rewarding savers, not kicking them in the balls.

Time to end this neo-liberal nightmare.

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10 hours ago, Millaise said:

They don't ever follow the ideology. There are all sorts of, often regressive, hidden taxes and tariffs; then they subsidize landlords through housing benefit and subsidize house sellers with "help to buy". Another example is government bonds  which provide welfare for corporates. Money ploughed into these zero-risk investments means that it isn't going into anything productive so they are positively harmful. They are useful for pensions for the elderly when people do need zero risk, but maybe the government should just be the pension provider.

Housing is about to become 'high risk' when it's realised that there aren't sufficient earnings to support the bubble of bubbles.

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In so many ways the Tories in recent years have become like the communists who they so much supposedly despise, how can they call this a free market economy, just so much of their policies are left wing when you look closer.

What politicians have totally lost is conviction, if you are left you are left and the same goes for the right, we seriously need both at some point over the generations. There was a time in up until the early part of the last century where left wing politicians were so badly needed in Britain to deal with inequality, poverty, housing, education and health and workers rights just as there was a need for right wing politics leading up to the 1970's where trade unions just took the p**s.

I have always thought our politics should be like a clocks pendlum, it just swings left to right, right to left from time to time in order to keep harmony.

 

Right now I see a destructive Corbyn getting into power, and yet I will 100% undersatnd why many will vote him in. He will so badly build the homes that the likes of us will never get, that's me assuming most of us work and pay taxes and are responsible for our own lives.

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38 minutes ago, wotsthat said:

In so many ways the Tories in recent years have become like the communists who they so much supposedly despise, how can they call this a free market economy, just so much of their policies are left wing when you look closer.

"The road up and the road down are the same thing." - Heraclitus

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Corbyn isnt the problem - the problem is the Blairites/Brownites who followed exactly the same neoliberal idiocy as their Tory peers. A mistake that was again compounded by Osborne which is why the coming fall is going to hit so hard.

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This really is a good topic for discussion, IMO  to my nemesis:),  am surprised we don't have several pages yet.

In one hour BBC 's Andrew Marr starts the countdown to tomorrows return of parliament.

It is quite often said that these are "interesting times" when politics are involved, though always keeping an eye on politics I have never got too excoted on the subject, but this term is more interesting, this is the term, for a while at least  that the destruction button is going to be well and truly pushed and at no time before have I been more concerned, and yes that probably means house prices falls along with much worse.

It's a cse of vote Corbyn and you lose or vote May and you lose. As a slightly left of centre throughout my life voter I have swung more so to the right than I am probably ever going to do again, but I am still not certain where my vote is going if at all..

Just concerning house prices and housing policy, though my interest of the coming stability of the UK is far bigger,  but this is HPC, I expect a choice of May continously doing nothing while pretending she is and ignoring the likes of us on here or Corbyn building more social housing than anyone in 50 years but  also ignoring the likes of us.

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2 hours ago, ThePrufeshanul said:

Corbyn isnt the problem - the problem is the Blairites/Brownites who followed exactly the same neoliberal idiocy as their Tory peers. A mistake that was again compounded by Osborne which is why the coming fall is going to hit so hard.

I agree. What is spooky is the the 2 parties in the US have almost mirrored the 2 parties here in the last 35 years. The Reagan/Thatcher hangover is a deep one.

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I might suspect it was all by design by the greed of the elites.

Edited by jonb2

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On 9/1/2017 at 7:05 PM, Millaise said:

They don't ever follow the ideology. There are all sorts of, often regressive, hidden taxes and tariffs; then they subsidize landlords through housing benefit and subsidize house sellers with "help to buy". Another example is government bonds  which provide welfare for corporates. Money ploughed into these zero-risk investments means that it isn't going into anything productive so they are positively harmful. They are useful for pensions for the elderly when people do need zero risk, but maybe the government should just be the pension provider.

Neoliberalism (Thatcherism) isn't the central Tory ideology, that's an ideology they adopted, partially, as a means to an end. 

In many ways, Blair's neoliberal reinvention of the Labour Party was just a repeat of Thatcher's earlier neoliberal revolution in the Tory party.

Whereas Labour have, perhaps, started to recognise that neoliberalism is not compatible with the original aims of the Labour Party (worker solidarity, essentially) the Tories haven't yet come to terms with the contradiction between neoliberalism and conservatism. 

However the use of subsidies and special treatment for favoured groups is not unusual, that's classic conservatism, as was pointed out by Hayek:

Quote

In the last resort, the conservative position rests on the belief that in any society there are recognizably superior persons whose inherited standards and values and position ought to be protected and who should have a greater influence on public affairs than others...

...Indeed, though the restrictions which exist today in industry and commerce are mainly the result of socialist views, the equally important restrictions in agriculture were usually introduced by conservatives at an even earlier date. And in their efforts to discredit free enterprise many conservative leaders have vied with the socialists.[9] 

 

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10 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

 

However the use of subsidies and special treatment for favoured groups is not unusual, that's classic conservatism, as was pointed out by Hayek:

 

Fantastic post. Hence the protection of inherited wealth, trust fund kids etc. Now I've clearly recognise this, and seeing the recent awful new young conservative grass roots activists, they've lost not only my vote but my sympathy too.

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7 hours ago, ThePrufeshanul said:

Corbyn isnt the problem - the problem is the Blairites/Brownites who followed exactly the same neoliberal idiocy as their Tory peers. A mistake that was again compounded by Osborne which is why the coming fall is going to hit so hard.

Exactly 

Blair, Brown,, May, Cameron, Osbourne, Darling, and 100's of others on both sides, they all came off the same conveyor belt.

Just have a feeling that David Davis could have been a little differenet, had the impression he was pro working people rather than just pro rich working people.

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He seemed the best of a bad bunch but, having watched him for a while now, i dont think he is the real deal. Though i like his stance on individual privacy and freedom he lacks both the minerals and the intellect.

 

As Dominic Cummings said he is "as thick as mince and as lazy as a toad".

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On 9/3/2017 at 9:08 AM, jonb2 said:

I agree. What is spooky is the the 2 parties in the US have almost mirrored the 2 parties here in the last 35 years. The Reagan/Thatcher hangover is a deep one.

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I might suspect it was all by design by the greed of the elites.

Surely it is logical that people follow fashions in thinking? 

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On 9/3/2017 at 6:21 AM, ThePrufeshanul said:

Corbyn isnt the problem - the problem is the Blairites/Brownites who followed exactly the same neoliberal idiocy as their Tory peers. A mistake that was again compounded by Osborne which is why the coming fall is going to hit so hard.

I imagine people in Venezuela said similar things about Chavez who according to Corbyn showed us a better way.

Quote

Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world

Although I really dislike Blair, Brown and don't think much of Cameron - things could be worse - Corbyn might show us how.

(Also Corbyn was in parliament under Blair Brown - he could have resigned and triggered a by election like Carswell did if he thought that they were so bad - not a very principled man).

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1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

Surely it is logical that people follow fashions in thinking? 

Iam - I don't think it's fashion so much however there may be a tribal thing as you say. A lot people don't think. They don't enjoy it and most don't have natural curiousity to discover how things work. Look at the successful distraction of social media for evidence.

Secondly, I think most see politics like football - the cult of personality - rather than competence.

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1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Iam - I don't think it's fashion so much however there may be a tribal thing as you say. A lot people don't think. They don't enjoy it and most don't have natural curiousity to discover how things work. Look at the successful distraction of social media for evidence.

Secondly, I think most see politics like football - the cult of personality - rather than competence.

If you take the view that most people don't think it is even less surprising that parties in the English speaking world have similar ideas. 

In football if a theory doesn't work then it tends to fail quickly.  One good reason why countries like Switzerland do well is because power is de-regulated for welfare spending etc so it is easy to compare different theories in  different parts of the country at the same time and see which ones work.  Sadly that will never happen in the UK.

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9 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

I imagine people in Venezuela said similar things about Chavez who according to Corbyn showed us a better way.

Although I really dislike Blair, Brown and don't think much of Cameron - things could be worse - Corbyn might show us how.

(Also Corbyn was in parliament under Blair Brown - he could have resigned and triggered a by election like Carswell did if he thought that they were so bad - not a very principled man).

Yes - Corbyn and Venezuela, Thatcher and Pinochet etc etc we've seen this dance before. 

The British Labour Party is a modern Western Social Democratic Party quite distinct from either Venezuela or Communism. remarkable that that even has to be pointed out on a House Price Crash forum.

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7 hours ago, ThePrufeshanul said:

Yes - Corbyn and Venezuela, Thatcher and Pinochet etc etc we've seen this dance before. 

The British Labour Party is a modern Western Social Democratic Party quite distinct from either Venezuela or Communism. remarkable that that even has to be pointed out on a House Price Crash forum.

If it is different then why did he admire Chavez?  His words not mine were

Quote

Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world

If someone had said about Thatcher

Quote

Thanks Thatcher for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. She made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world

You would assume that they wanted to emulate Thatcher why is different for Chavez?

It is remarkable that anyone could say that Corbyn didn't (hopefully now he has changed his mind although he hasn't said that he has) want to copy Chavez.

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1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

If it is different then why did he admire Chavez?  His words not mine were

If someone had said about Thatcher

You would assume that they wanted to emulate Thatcher why is different for Chavez?

It is remarkable that anyone could say that Corbyn didn't (hopefully now he has changed his mind although he hasn't said that he has) want to copy Chavez.

I think it's reasonable to say that checks and balances both within the Labour party and parliament will limit Corbyn's dictatorial temptations.

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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