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Qetesuesi

An internet question

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If "the system" can use your IP address to work out that a given video on e.g. Youtube or iPlayer can't be viewed "in your location/jurisdiction",

then why in the world can't the same simple process be used to automatically block spam which clearly applies only to US or other foreign residents???

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IP addresses aren't 100% reliable geographic indicators.

If by spam you mean email spam having the address alone doesn't guarantee country, especially if it's something like .com, and spammers wouldn't care. AFAIK there's no reliable way of knowing where an email came from.

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4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

IP addresses aren't 100% reliable geographic indicators.

If by spam you mean email spam having the address alone doesn't guarantee country, especially if it's something like .com, and spammers wouldn't care. AFAIK there's no reliable way of knowing where an email came from.

Well quite a few of the US-originating spam mail quote money amounts in $ and list US addresses, which is a bit of a hint.

Of course, you're right that IP addresses alone don't always pinpoint location.  So, given this slight uncertainty, given the choice being allowing someone to view what they proactively seek to view, and sending them something they never asked for, guess which event happens and which doesn't?  It should be the other way round.

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14 minutes ago, Qetesuesi said:

Well quite a few of the US-originating spam mail quote money amounts in $ and list US addresses, which is a bit of a hint.

Of course, you're right that IP addresses alone don't always pinpoint location.  So, given this slight uncertainty, given the choice being allowing someone to view what they proactively seek to view, and sending them something they never asked for, guess which event happens and which doesn't?  It should be the other way round.

It's relatively expensive to serve streaming videos. Geo-blocking on IP is reasonably simple and reliable so there is an economic incentive to do so.

Sending mails via normal internet protocols is very cheap - the cost per additional recipient to the sender is basically zero. Geo-blocking on recipient domain is more complicated and utterly unreliable, so the economic incentive is not to bother.

Most of the costs of spam mail - routing and final delivery, the annoyance experienced by the recipient and spam filtering solutions developed and implemented elsewhere - are not borne by the spammer. Like many successful industries they benefit from externalised costs.

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4 hours ago, Horridbloke said:

It's relatively expensive to serve streaming videos. Geo-blocking on IP is reasonably simple and reliable so there is an economic incentive to do so.

Sending mails via normal internet protocols is very cheap - the cost per additional recipient to the sender is basically zero. Geo-blocking on recipient domain is more complicated and utterly unreliable, so the economic incentive is not to bother.

Most of the costs of spam mail - routing and final delivery, the annoyance experienced by the recipient and spam filtering solutions developed and implemented elsewhere - are not borne by the spammer. Like many successful industries they benefit from externalised costs.

Of course, which is why the ISP or email hoster should do it.

I don't really credit the concept of a cost to a video provider, certainly not in the case of YT which generally monetises its content.

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3 hours ago, Qetesuesi said:

Of course, which is why the ISP or email hoster should do it.

I don't really credit the concept of a cost to a video provider, certainly not in the case of YT which generally monetises its content.

The email hosters DO do this. They just don't do it entirely reliably because there isn't a entirely reliable means of determining whether a given email is spam or not. If a means were found then the spammers would get to work on circumventing it. A while ago Microsoft promised to take care of the spam problem (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/26/well_kill_spam_in_two/). They failed.

There is another good economic reason for a video provider to block on geographical reasons: material might be licensed for broadcast only in specific regions. Otherwise some sites have definitely done it for sad economic reasons (a presidential campaign website was found to be blocking requests from abroad).

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On 29/08/2017 at 7:50 AM, Qetesuesi said:

If "the system" can use your IP address to work out that a given video on e.g. Youtube or iPlayer can't be viewed "in your location/jurisdiction",

then why in the world can't the same simple process be used to automatically block spam which clearly applies only to US or other foreign residents???

Not to be rude but your question doesn't make logical sense. How can an email address have a "location"? 

Suppose you are  Qetesuesi@example.com and you are in UK. You login to your email and do stuff. Next week you are on holiday in Venezuela and you login to the same Qetesuesi@example.com and do similar stuff. On the way back you have a stopover in Zanzibar and you login to your mail there as well. How is an anti-spam system supposed to know where you will login from next and tailor the content to that location? 

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On 30/08/2017 at 5:50 PM, Funn3r said:

Not to be rude but your question doesn't make logical sense. How can an email address have a "location"? 

Suppose you are  Qetesuesi@example.com and you are in UK. You login to your email and do stuff. Next week you are on holiday in Venezuela and you login to the same Qetesuesi@example.com and do similar stuff. On the way back you have a stopover in Zanzibar and you login to your mail there as well. How is an anti-spam system supposed to know where you will login from next and tailor the content to that location? 

Because in all situations/locations you're using the same email server to originate the emails.  They'll both be originated from a 'British IP' (say), even though the computer connecting to the server (your laptop) is in a different geographical location (and IP address).

But the original idea isn't going to work.  It is a bit like saying 'I block international numbers to stop dodgy international nuisance phone calls' -- the 'baddies' are perfectly adept at getting around this sort of trivial filter.

 

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On 8/29/2017 at 2:46 PM, Horridbloke said:

Most of the costs of spam mail - routing and final delivery, the annoyance experienced by the recipient and spam filtering solutions developed and implemented elsewhere - are not borne by the spammer. Like many successful industries they benefit from externalised costs.

One idea for eradicating spam was to have emails a pay for service. No pay and your email doesn't get there. imo they set the price too high, so not enough takers. If it was something like $1 for 10,000 emails, that would be a lifetime cost to me of $1 but to a spammer, there is no longer a profit to be made.

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2 hours ago, dgul said:

Because in all situations/locations you're using the same email server to originate the emails.  They'll both be originated from a 'British IP' (say), even though the computer connecting to the server (your laptop) is in a different geographical location (and IP address).

Really? I didn't know there still were UK ISPs who  gave you access to an email server hosted by them. I think you'll find that the average UK person has an American mailserver (Hotmail etc.)

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2 hours ago, Funn3r said:

Really? I didn't know there still were UK ISPs who  gave you access to an email server hosted by them. I think you'll find that the average UK person has an American mailserver (Hotmail etc.)

Fair point.  Work-emails or an ISP email will be UK based, but most accounts won't even have a UK-located email server.

[although I don't know if Google etc will actually direct to a server physically located in the UK.  But, even then, it would probably proclaim to be California, Washington or wherever]

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4 hours ago, John51 said:

One idea for eradicating spam was to have emails a pay for service. No pay and your email doesn't get there. imo they set the price too high, so not enough takers. If it was something like $1 for 10,000 emails, that would be a lifetime cost to me of $1 but to a spammer, there is no longer a profit to be made.

Okay: who gets to make this charge?

A lot of the existing problems with internet email come from it having been designed when the internet was considered a hippyish benign everyone-mucks-in-together club. It sounds reasonable to charge clients for email until one realises that anyone can set up a domain and email host. If that became impossible the internet in its current form would probably break. Any such scenario would likely prevent the next big innovation.

(Cue network-neutrality whinge.)

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Thunderbird shows me the origin of my emails and I notice that an email from Marks and Spencer originated in Indianapolis ,one from Apotea Sweden came from Seattle and another from Yahoo came from Kaliningrad.

Even emails from the one company about one order can come from three different countries around the world. 

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  • 298 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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