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Is BTL a business or an investment?

Buy to Let - Investment or Business  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Is BTL an investment or a business?

    • Investment
      47
    • Business
      27


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2 minutes ago, long time lurking said:

Most of it a leveraged bet on HPI 

It was for many - unless they have sold out I suspect they will love to regret it.

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Business. You are selling a service. If the house was not let out and left empty then it would be an investment, in the same way gold is. 

 

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It's the offline equivalent of domain name squatting, a ponzi scheme, and a way of idling while the developing world grows their real economies all rolled into one.

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Investment.  Societally destructive greedy investment.

And an investment which creates the demand it pretends to service.

An investment which requires some activity, from time to time, to service.  

Bit of paperwork here and there.  BTL forums with BTLers who say they just do an hour on their BTL a month.... that's not a business.

Too many would-be (and actual) BTLers on here, eh Count.   Business eh?   Buy a house, rent it out, and you're in business, farming renters rent?  Please.   Clearly very few people here who know anything about business/commercial world.

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BTL? Legalised Opportunistic Parasitism (incentivised by multi beneficial symbiotic relationships between banks, builders and gov't).

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It's not a matter to vote on - the courts have ruled that it's an investment.

Even 118 has an article explaining this!

 

Edited by mrtickle

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8 hours ago, Venger said:

Investment.  Societally destructive greedy investment.

And an investment which creates the demand it pretends to service.

An investment which requires some activity, from time to time, to service.  

Bit of paperwork here and there.  BTL forums with BTLers who say they just do an hour on their BTL a month.... that's not a business.

Too many would-be (and actual) BTLers on here, eh Count.   Business eh?   Buy a house, rent it out, and you're in business, farming renters rent?  Please.   Clearly very few people here who know anything about business/commercial world.

Think that's the point V, treat it like a business, vat register it, must be through a limited company, regulate the hell out of it, minimum wage and certificates for anyone 'working' in it, fines for accounts being late, commercial rates and arrangement fees for borrowing every year so not mortgages but commercial arrangements secured on assets, business plans etc

Would sort out its my pension innit investors sharpish

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Quite, If I decided to buy with a loan a fleet of cars to rent out I would be in the car rental business.....so renting out homes is a business except they say it is an investment because they expect homes to go up in value.;)

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8 minutes ago, winkie said:

Quite, If I decided to buy with a loan a fleet of cars to rent out I would be in the car rental business.....so renting out homes is a business except they say it is an investment because they expect homes to go up in value.;)

Another analogy would be if you decided to buy with a loan a fleet of classic cars to rent out you would be in the classic car rental business.....so renting out Classic cars is a business except they say it is an investment because they expect the cars to go up in value. Of course the problem is all these rises in value are bubbles..................

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Again with the cars eh.

The cars where there is virtually no shortage of supply.... range and age of models.

We've got buses, trains, trams, taxis, bicycles, skateboards..... 

MGuhoG1.jpg

VDXnEm2.jpg


 

Quote

 

Winston S. Churchill


[From a Speech Delivered at King's Theatre in Edinburgh on 17 July 1909]


It is quite true that land monopoly is not the only monopoly which exists, but it is by far the greatest of monopolies - it is a perpetual monopoly, and it is the mother of all other forms of monopoly. It is quite true that unearned increments in land are not the only form of unearned or undeserved profit which individuals are able to secure; but it is the principal form of unearned increment which is derived from processes which are not merely not beneficial, but which are positively detrimental to the general public. 

Land, which is a necessity of human existence, which is the original source of all wealth, which is strictly limited in extent, which is fixed in geographical position. Land, I say, differs from all other forms of property in these primary and fundamental conditions. 

Nothing is more amusing than to watch the efforts of our monopolist opponents to prove that other forms of property and increment are exactly the same and are similar all respects to the unearned increment in land. 

Misleading and False Analogies

They talk to us of the increased profits of a doctor or a lawyer from the growth of population in the towns in which they live. They talk to us of the profits of a railway through a greater degree of wealth and activity in the districts through which it runs. They tell us of the profits which are derived from a rise in stocks and shares, and even of those which are sometimes derived from the sale of pictures and works of art, and they ask us - as if it were the only complaint: "Ought not all these other forms to be taxed, too?"

But see how misleading and false all these analogies are. The windfalls which people with artistic gifts are able from time to time to derive from the sale of a picture - from a Vandyke or a Holbein - may here and there be very considerable. But pictures do not get in anybody's way. They do not lay a toll on anybody's labour; they do not touch enterprise and production at any point; they do not affect any of those creative processes upon which the material well-being of millions depends.

....Roads are made, streets are made, railway services are improved, electric light turns night into day, electric trams glide swiftly to and fro, water is brought from reservoirs a hundred miles off in the mountains - and all the while the landlord sits still. Every one of those improvements is effected by the labour and cost of other people. Many of the most important are effected at the cost of the municipality and of the ratepayers. To not one of those improvements does the land monopolist, as a land monopolist, contribute, and yet by every one of them the value of his land is sensibly enhanced. He renders no service to the community, he contributes nothing to the general welfare; he contributes nothing even to the process from which his own enrichment is derived.

..full http://www.cooperative-individualism.org/churchill-winston_mother-of-all-monopolies-1909.htm

 

 

 

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It is just a classic get rich quick scheme, the ony thing is that you cannot get rich from it anymore. I put BTL in the same catergory as those A4 adds you see on lamposts or back of vulgar looking cars claiming they will make you £500 per day sticking envelopes.

And please don't call it a business anyone, as  someone that has  built up a business myself I really resent it. Of course years ago down the local pub  they would brag about "How I built my empire up", but unlike a real business that is thrown obstacles on a weekly basis where you just knuckle down and get around it, BTL types just start wailing and f**k**g crying at every little problem that comes their way and wants to be bailed out and have their hands held.

BTL is non of the choices, it is just something else that hopefull we will be talking about in history books one day

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8 minutes ago, wotsthat said:

It is just a classic get rich quick scheme, the ony thing is that you cannot get rich from it anymore. I put BTL in the same catergory as those A4 adds you see on lamposts or back of vulgar looking cars claiming they will make you £500 per day sticking envelopes.

And please don't call it a business anyone, as  someone that has  built up a business myself I really resent it. Of course years ago down the local pub  they would brag about "How I built my empire up", but unlike a real business that is thrown obstacles on a weekly basis where you just knuckle down and get around it, BTL types just start wailing and f**k**g crying at every little problem that comes their way and wants to be bailed out and have their hands held.

BTL is non of the choices, it is just something else that hopefull we will be talking about in history books one day

I have built a business and take the opposite view as posted before treat it like a business, as is well known the majority of businesses fail in the first three years which would then shake down the market for first time buyers and rental needs (there is a genuine needed private rental sector) to be provided by well run companies run like a proper business in any other market.

The problem is at the moment it is neither fish nor fowl.

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35 minutes ago, Option5 said:

Another analogy would be if you decided to buy with a loan a fleet of classic cars to rent out you would be in the classic car rental business.....so renting out Classic cars is a business except they say it is an investment because they expect the cars to go up in value. Of course the problem is all these rises in value are bubbles..................

Ah cars thought we would get on....;)

Not sure what you disagree with in the analogy Mr V classic cars rise because of shortage and are snapped up for capital gain. The housing market should morally be more regulated to avoid this but surely the mechanism is the same.

Ps Option - interesting shout in the telegraph this week Audi A2 starting to mve got me thing about aluminum cars as a group to look at.

Motorbikes....got my CCM Spitfire coming in September :D

Edited by Greg Bowman

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Just now, Greg Bowman said:

Ps Option - interesting shout in the telegraph this week Audi A2 starting toi move got me thing about aluminum cars as a group to look at.

Not a bad drive, I had one some time ago, only thing is the bonnet is bolted down???

 

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2 minutes ago, Option5 said:

Not a bad drive, I had one some time ago, only thing is the bonnet is bolted down???

 

Yep weird design thinking more as a little speculative cheap buy

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