Globalisation and Brexit

[rollover]

31 minutes ago, XswampyX said:

I think you will find that pro-Brexit people have been labelled as right wing. They don't identify as such so it's just a slur spread around by leftist remoaners who dream about a communist run EU, death and starvation.

Why do you think you're right even if you're wrong?

[XswampyX]

5 minutes ago, rollover said:

Why do you think you're right even if you're wrong?

I don't think I am right, it's just a label given by other people who are actually wrong. 

62 year old Doris who voted for brexit isn't right wing.

[BorrowToLeech]

16 minutes ago, XswampyX said:

I think you will find that pro-Brexit people have been labelled as right wing. They don't identify as such so it's just a slur spread around by leftist remoaners who dream about a communist run EU, death and starvation.

 

 

 

Pro-Brexit people are right-wing.

Or, at least, they are mostly making right-wing arguments against the EU. 

Both sides of the Brexit issue are right-wing. It's all about divisions on the right, as it struggles to come to terms with the contradictions between neoliberalism and conservatism. 

'Remoaners' like the CBI and the City of London are clearly not left-wing, nor is the EU project.

The left didn't really feature in the EU debate at all.

Right-wing isn't a slur, it's a description.  What kind of politics will we have if we can't even describe political opinions?

What you're doing is to try and apply the 'logic' of identity politics to the language of actual politics.  The political right is not by any stretch of the imagination an oppressed group, its barely even a group.  

If you, like, find yourself literally triggered by the use of the oppressive hate speech term 'r*ght-w*ng' perhaps you'd like to suggest an alternative?

Ideologically queer?

[Steppenpig]

The eu is blairite left. Loves bankers and warmongering and gesture politics That's why it is despised by both left and right wing. 

[thecrashingisles]

10 minutes ago, Steppenpig said:

The eu is blairite left. Loves bankers and warmongering and gesture politics That's why it is despised by both left and right wing. 

An example of EU warmongering please?

[Steppenpig]

59 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

An example of EU warmongering please?

So,  we're agreed on the rest, then? 

[GrizzlyDave]

4 hours ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

Pro-Brexit people are right-wing.

Or, at least, they are mostly making right-wing arguments against the EU. 

Both sides of the Brexit issue are right-wing. It's all about divisions on the right, as it struggles to come to terms with the contradictions between neoliberalism and conservatism. 

'Remoaners' like the CBI and the City of London are clearly not left-wing, nor is the EU project.

The left didn't really feature in the EU debate at all.

Right-wing isn't a slur, it's a description.  What kind of politics will we have if we can't even describe political opinions?

What you're doing is to try and apply the 'logic' of identity politics to the language of actual politics.  The political right is not by any stretch of the imagination an oppressed group, its barely even a group.  

If you, like, find yourself literally triggered by the use of the oppressive hate speech term 'r*ght-w*ng' perhaps you'd like to suggest an alternative?

Ideologically queer?

Was Tony Benn right wing?

[tomandlu]

8 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

I'm mystified by the people who describe themselves as 'right-wing' - generally the boomers - who seems oblivious to the contradictions between being right-wing and pro-Brexit (in its current form).

I'm a left-wing Corbyn supporter btw. I voted remain (just) - I thought it was the wrong vote at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

[thecrashingisles]

4 hours ago, Steppenpig said:

So,  we're agreed on the rest, then? 

No, but on the others it's easier to imagine what you're whittling on about.

[BorrowToLeech]

2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Was Tony Benn right wing?

No, but he died in 2014.

I didn't say that there aren't left-wing arguments for or against the EU, only that they didn't play any significant part in the referendum debate. 

Also, left-wing opinions on the EU are like left-wing opinions about dogs. It's just not a core issue the way it is for a conservative or a neoliberal. 

[Futuroid]

I often read about Brexit being a "reaction" to globalisation. That might be true (although, I'm not convinced).

The trouble is, the new post Brexit slogan to encapsulate the 2019+ vision is "Global Britain". In the process of doing less trade with our immediate, developed neighbours (who share - by virtue of law - the same legal protections and limitations as us) we will be doing more trade with countries like China, India the USA, etc. and consequently be exposed to more powerful global trade trends. How could we possibly export to the US without reducing our cost base to match theirs (no state healthcare, minimal state pensions, etc.)

My own thoughts are that globalisation is primarily a function of technology, not a function of politics. Similar to the Industrial Revolution, attempts to stop it dead will prove futile. All you can do it try to do is harness it as much as possible and offer interventions in key areas to reduce the risk than can result from sudden change.

 

[BorrowToLeech]

6 hours ago, Steppenpig said:

The eu is blairite left. Loves bankers and warmongering and gesture politics That's why it is despised by both left and right wing. 

Blair was on the right, and bankers are pretty much the epitome of the right.  

You seriously think all those millionaire traders are voting for Corbyn?  That's just silly.

The EU is a project to enshrine free movement of labour and capital, which subverts the democratic process in the defence of free-trade and business.  

It's about as left-wing as General Pinochet.

If you're Usain Bolt, then the tenth fastest man on earth is a pretty slow runner.  In reality, he's the tenth fastest man on earth. 

The UK is really ******ing good at neoliberalism, the EU is probably only top 5. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by DrBuyToLeech

[GrizzlyDave]

1 hour ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

No, but he died in 2014.

I didn't say that there aren't left-wing arguments for or against the EU, only that they didn't play any significant part in the referendum debate. 

Also, left-wing opinions on the EU are like left-wing opinions about dogs. It's just not a core issue the way it is for a conservative or a neoliberal. 

I know when he died, God rest his soul, he would have voted leave. BIND.

The left wing arguments were repeatedly made EVERYWHERE - lack of parliamentary sovereignty, lack of state aid support, the plutocracy of the EU etc etc.

Don't write off Left wing brexiters as irrelevant. They weren't and are not.

 

[Futuroid]

56 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

The EU is a project to enshrine free movement of labour and capital, which subverts the democratic process in the defence of free-trade and business.  

 

Ironically it was Mrs Thatcher who was the architect of much of it...

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/margaret-thatcher-the-critical-architect-of-european-integration/

[jonb2]

9 hours ago, XswampyX said:

62 year old Doris who voted for brexit isn't right wing.

She's a nationalist Swampy - therefore right wing - and also being played by the populists who are secret fully paid neo-liberals.

[jonb2]

8 hours ago, Steppenpig said:

The eu is blairite left. Loves bankers and warmongering and gesture politics That's why it is despised by both left and right wing. 

The alternaitve power is Wall Street pig, Tell me which one you really prefer? You have to pick one.

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, Futuroid said:

My own thoughts are that globalisation is primarily a function of technology, not a function of politics. Similar to the Industrial Revolution, attempts to stop it dead will prove futile. All you can do it try to do is harness it as much as possible and offer interventions in key areas to reduce the risk than can result from sudden change.

Globalisation could be good, but the elites have hijacked it and so the results are very, very bad.

Automation will end up the same way, the money in the hands of a few.

[BorrowToLeech]

57 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I know when he died, God rest his soul, he would have voted leave. BIND.

The left wing arguments were repeatedly made EVERYWHERE - lack of parliamentary sovereignty, lack of state aid support, the plutocracy of the EU etc etc.

Don't write off Left wing brexiters as irrelevant. They weren't and are not.

 

They were and are irrelevant, which is not surprising given that the left have been politically irrelevant for at least twenty-five years.  Corbyn might change that, but he didn't play much of a role in the Brexit debate.

With the exception of state-aid, which i think was not a prominent argument, none of those things can be characterised as uniquely left wing. 

The major arguments were, basically, the economic benefits of free trade and globalisation, the relative costs and benefits of immigration, national sovereignty and, to some extent, democracy.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there aren't people who hold left-wing views, or that there aren't good left-wing arguments against the EU, I'm simply saying they aren't politically relevant. 

Modern mainstream politics is an argument between conservatives and neoliberals. What passes for the mainstream left is just identity politics, which is inherently neoliberal. 

[GrizzlyDave]

24 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

They were and are irrelevant, which is not surprising given that the left have been politically irrelevant for at least twenty-five years.  Corbyn might change that, but he didn't play much of a role in the Brexit debate.

With the exception of state-aid, which i think was not a prominent argument, none of those things can be characterised as uniquely left wing. 

The major arguments were, basically, the economic benefits of free trade and globalisation, the relative costs and benefits of immigration, national sovereignty and, to some extent, democracy.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there aren't people who hold left-wing views, or that there aren't good left-wing arguments against the EU, I'm simply saying they aren't politically relevant. 

Modern mainstream politics is an argument between conservatives and neoliberals. What passes for the mainstream left is just identity politics, which is inherently neoliberal. 

I think Corbyn was gagged on the EU. He has finally been released, but it now in the curious place that a bunch of snowflakes think he is proEU. Hey I voted for the man, but because I know he is a leaver! But labours soft brexit is probably the best way to bring some sort of conflict resolution to the topic, so so be it if that is what we take.

I guess I've had my own left wing views on the EU for a long time, and yeah, they were not as mainstream as the vote leave message.

[GrizzlyDave]

50 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

She's a nationalist Swampy - therefore right wing - and also being played by the populists who are secret fully paid neo-liberals.

Being a nationalist does not make you right wing.

Tony Benn

[tomandlu]

29 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

They were and are irrelevant, which is not surprising given that the left have been politically irrelevant for at least twenty-five years.  Corbyn might change that, but he didn't play much of a role in the Brexit debate.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you're missing something. Even if people didn't recognise it as 'left-wing', one of the primary motivations for brexit was kicking back against wage-arbitrage. People didn't recognise it as 'left-wing' because for the previous decade people had been told that being left-wing meant unequivocal support for immigration in all forms.

[nightowl]

I am bit surprised people who come to this forum still use the phrases "Left wing" and "Right wing" in a way given the more enlightened views on how credit supply effects HPI which isnt mainstream.  I know the mainstream media and political journalists love these two labels (i think just because journo's are too lazy to analyse things properly).

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Being a nationalist does not make you right wing.

Tony Benn

Yes, admittedly you can be a left wing nationalist. Or even a socialist nationalist :-)

But often when I think of nationalism these days, I associate it with extremes like skinheads and facism.

As others have pointed out - the old labels are not working really - they fog the argument. Perhaps the 'now' keywords are neoliberalism, populism and social democracy?

Edited July 20, 2017 by jonb2

[GrizzlyDave]

7 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Yes, admittedly you can be a left wing nationalist. Or even a socialist nationalist :-)

But often when I think of nationalism these days, I associate it with extremes like skinheads and facism.

As others have pointed out - the old labels are not working really - they fog the argument. Perhaps the 'now' keywords are neoliberalism, populism and social democracy?

Be a wolf, or a shepherd, just not a sheep.

[jonb2]

7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Be a wolf, or a shepherd, just not a sheep.

I think I need to work on ridding my walrus-ness before taking on being more wolf-like.