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Globalisation and Brexit

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Some good articles in today's Grauniad. First up is a long read article on globalisation, and how even its cheerleaders are turning on it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/14/globalisation-the-rise-and-fall-of-an-idea-that-swept-the-world

Quote

Erstwhile supporters now concede, at least in part, that it has produced inequality, unemployment and downward pressure on wages. Nuances and criticisms that economists only used to raise in private seminars are finally coming out in the open.

Next, a not-bad piece - Harris, always good imho - trying to break it gently to remainers that they haven't got a hope...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/14/brexit-eu-referendum

Quote

In places long since laid waste by the malign effects of globalisation, predictions of economic doom do not cut much ice. And as well as holding fast to their beliefs about free movement and the necessity of Britain taking power back from Brussels, some now express an opinion that irate remainers might not even understand: that if leaving the EU is turning out to be so difficult, this only underlines how much of an offence to sovereignty and democracy it probably is.

 

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6 hours ago, tomandlu said:

Some good articles in today's Grauniad. First up is a long read article on globalisation, and how even its cheerleaders are turning on it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/14/globalisation-the-rise-and-fall-of-an-idea-that-swept-the-world

Next, a not-bad piece - Harris, always good imho - trying to break it gently to remainers that they haven't got a hope...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/14/brexit-eu-referendum

 

quite.

corbyn is at heart a brexiteer.he wants nationalised,state owned energy,transport systems etc etc....totally at odds with big business,which is of course 100% globalist..they want the biggest market to their products possible,and national boundaries,laws etc is in opposition to this.

I don't agree with his politics entirely,but he does have some valid points, like 75% of our rail system being foreign owned,when the ideal percentage should be something under 20%.

I don't personally have a problem with a foreign entity coming in and improving our services,but it most certainly has to be a two-way street on trade talks like that......and TBH it was corbyns(actually foot's) lot that sparked the sell-off of the nations assets back in the late 70's by being so pig-headed and refusing to adapt to some necessary changes....that caused the original capital flight and reluctance to invest in the infrastructure.

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On 7/14/2017 at 7:13 PM, oracle said:

quite.

corbyn is at heart a brexiteer.he wants nationalised,state owned energy,transport systems etc etc....totally at odds with big business,which is of course 100% globalist..they want the biggest market to their products possible,and national boundaries,laws etc is in opposition to this.

Indeed. I'm often mystified by the number of people who describe themselves as 'left-wing' - generally the boomers - who seem oblivious to the contradictions between being left-wing and pro-EU (in its current form).

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2 hours ago, tomandlu said:

Indeed. I'm often mystified by the number of people who describe themselves as 'left-wing' - generally the boomers - who seem oblivious to the contradictions between being left-wing and pro-EU (in its current form).

Yes, but I would contend it is the younger generation who are most confused about left-wing policy on the EU.  The "boomers" are old enough to remember Benn, Foot, et al campaigning against EU membership.

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Left wing right wing - they have no meaning these days in the current political structure.  They might have had some meaning when they were first introduced and there were communist countries and such like.  Now the terms just sow confusion.  Politicians chop and change from one day to the next.  

The only thing that seems to make much sense these days is the few and the many but while the many think stuff like left/right they're at a serious disadvantage.  

Maybe Corbyn would be different in power and maybe not.  

If given power he's just as likely to end up going along with the few on the policies that matter and just be different on the fringes.

Edited by billybong

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The left has been completely hijacked as has the right (capitalism for cronyism). Somehow they've been brought together to serve the God that is globalism.

It took me years to get my head around what has happened to the left that's managed to get turkeys to vote for Xmas but it all boils down to Cultural Marxism. It's like that last scene from the Body snatchers where Donald Sutherland points at his old colleague to reveal that he's 'gone' too. I keep looking round to find more and more SJW, virtue signalling types striving to outdo each other with their inclusiveness whilst they watch their living standards vanish down the pan.

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48 minutes ago, Maynardgravy said:

The left has been completely hijacked as has the right (capitalism for cronyism). Somehow they've been brought together to serve the God that is globalism.

It took me years to get my head around what has happened to the left that's managed to get turkeys to vote for Xmas but it all boils down to Cultural Marxism. It's like that last scene from the Body snatchers where Donald Sutherland points at his old colleague to reveal that he's 'gone' too. I keep looking round to find more and more SJW, virtue signalling types striving to outdo each other with their inclusiveness whilst they watch their living standards vanish down the pan.

Indeed!

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1 hour ago, Maynardgravy said:

The left has been completely hijacked as has the right (capitalism for cronyism). Somehow they've been brought together to serve the God that is globalism.

It took me years to get my head around what has happened to the left that's managed to get turkeys to vote for Xmas but it all boils down to Cultural Marxism. It's like that last scene from the Body snatchers where Donald Sutherland points at his old colleague to reveal that he's 'gone' too. I keep looking round to find more and more SJW, virtue signalling types striving to outdo each other with their inclusiveness whilst they watch their living standards vanish down the pan.

I had the same realisation a few years ago and pretty much stopped buying the Graun because of it (though I do still pick up a copy occasionally). The Graun's two year pre-election vendetta against Corbyn drew from the same source: The idea that after the Berlin Wall came down the big economic arguments had been decided once and for all in favour of the frictionless, globalised free market and that the Left should concern itself with identity politics and issues of gender equality instead and let the markets and free trade optimise economic output in the UK and around the world. It took the shock of Corbyn's near victory in the GE to galvanise the Labour Party out of its neoliberal stupor.

 

 

Edited by zugzwang

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Largely agree (with caveats) with most of the comments here. Left and right have become largely meaningless throughout the west, and the more important distinction seems to be status quo vs. anti status quo.

I'd agree that the left has focussed too much on social issues, but that's largely because it's abandoned and ignored any economic arguments, and their supporters, gawd bless them, largely went along with it because it was more photogenic than economics anyway.

For now, Corbyn certainly gets the benefit of the doubt from me (I'd even go so far as cautiously optimistic). I've supported him from the get-go, but in all honesty that wasn't because I thought he could win any elections. He's reclaiming economics as a political issue - and not just on taxation levels - and whether or not you agree with him, that's got to be worth something.

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4 hours ago, Maynardgravy said:

The left has been completely hijacked as has the right (capitalism for cronyism). Somehow they've been brought together to serve the God that is globalism.

It took me years to get my head around what has happened to the left that's managed to get turkeys to vote for Xmas but it all boils down to Cultural Marxism. It's like that last scene from the Body snatchers where Donald Sutherland points at his old colleague to reveal that he's 'gone' too. I keep looking round to find more and more SJW, virtue signalling types striving to outdo each other with their inclusiveness whilst they watch their living standards vanish down the pan.

Left and right are meaning less. Now its globalist bankers protecting their vested interests with communist policies. Print as much money as you can for you and your mates and screw the workers. If it goes wrong socialise the losses and let the workers pay for that too.

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On 14/07/2017 at 7:13 PM, oracle said:

 

I don't personally have a problem with a foreign entity coming in and improving our services,but it most certainly has to be a two-way street on trade talks like that......and TBH it was corbyns(actually foot's) lot that sparked the sell-off of the nations assets back in the late 70's by being so pig-headed and refusing to adapt to some necessary changes....that caused the original capital flight and reluctance to invest in the infrastructure.

Improving our services? How can a company that makes a profit be better than our government who run the same system for non profit? All the investment since British rail has been paid through taxes and higher ticket prices. It's no mathmatical genius involved, invest more taxes, drastically increase ticket prices.. and services improve.

the question that should be asked is why do we assume private companies run our rail and energy better than our government? 

If that statement is true and private companies do run our services better than our government, then it's not privatisation we need, it's a new government!

look at the railway, drivers, guards, repair, admin.. etc.. 

no matter who owns the franchise the model remains, take over the model when the franchise contract expires, and touch nothing, tupee the staff across and what's the difference? 

In fact if we took back all the franchises over time you could amalgamate some roles like admin and reduce cost..

if the corrupt politicians can't do this then the all need to be removed..

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8 hours ago, GreenDevil said:

Left and right are meaning less. Now its globalist bankers protecting their vested interests with communist policies. Print as much money as you can for you and your mates and screw the workers. If it goes wrong socialise the losses and let the workers pay for that too.

We need a new party, run by decent human beings.. then we can vote these scum out of power, adjust our laws and have them all thrown in prison.

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16 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

it all boils down to Cultural Marxism....

Cultural Marxism is meaningless.

If the bible-bashing sister-marrying American right don't like you, you're a Marxist.  Gays are Marxist, Darwin was a Marxist.

Nonsense.

Marxism plays essentially no role in modern British or American society.  We live in a right-wing neoliberal world. That means culture is neoliberal. 

Turns out if there's no such thing as society, then there's no-one to tell a man he can't marry another man, there's no-one to stop a man identifying as a pan-sexual woman.

Turns out, if there's no such thing as society, then there's no such thing as nationality either. So stop complaining about immigration.

No society means no social norms, no roots and no traditions.

Amost all modern politics is about this battle, on the right, between neoliberalism and conservatism.

Free markets are awesome, but not the European single market.

Free markets are awesome, but that new estate will change the traditional character of the village. 

Free markets are awesome, but Allah says women shouldn't work. 

Neoliberalism isn't compatible with conservatism any more than it is compatible with socialism. 

The right just can't admit that they are trying to believe two incompatible things at the same time.

They can't stand that their own ideology has produced a world they don't much like, so they have to blame the ghosts of a politics they remember from childhood. 

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1 hour ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

Cultural Marxism is meaningless.

If the bible-bashing sister-marrying American right don't like you, you're a Marxist.  Gays are Marxist, Darwin was a Marxist.

Nonsense.

Marxism plays essentially no role in modern British or American society.  We live in a right-wing neoliberal world. That means culture is neoliberal. 

Turns out if there's no such thing as society, then there's no-one to tell a man he can't marry another man, there's no-one to stop a man identifying as a pan-sexual woman.

Turns out, if there's no such thing as society, then there's no such thing as nationality either. So stop complaining about immigration.

No society means no social norms, no roots and no traditions.

Amost all modern politics is about this battle, on the right, between neoliberalism and conservatism.

Free markets are awesome, but not the European single market.

Free markets are awesome, but that new estate will change the traditional character of the village. 

Free markets are awesome, but Allah says women shouldn't work. 

Neoliberalism isn't compatible with conservatism any more than it is compatible with socialism. 

The right just can't admit that they are trying to believe two incompatible things at the same time.

They can't stand that their own ideology has produced a world they don't much like, so they have to blame the ghosts of a politics they remember from childhood. 

Very good!

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13 hours ago, macca13 said:

Improving our services? How can a company that makes a profit be better than our government who run the same system for non profit? All the investment since British rail has been paid through taxes and higher ticket prices. It's no mathmatical genius involved, invest more taxes, drastically increase ticket prices.. and services improve.

 

a company that makes a profit has the incentive to increase efficiency/reduce costs in the long run, so therefore will make investments in rolling stock etc that causes less wear to track,breaks down less often and requires less downtime in the service shed to get operational again.

the downside of the corporatist version of that is trying to pack everyone in like sardines,but theoretically if there are multiple operators running the same line-like an airline, you will have a choice between going no frills or taking a more luxurious route...and even in the no frills sector there will be emphasis on providing a decent-ish travel experience.

the basic problem we have vis a vis rail is any of the below options:

1)not enough competition on ALL routes,I've said before that we ought to probably have 3 overlapping franchises per area...one metro(12 I think required nationally in regions, not sporadic company lines sprawled over the country belonging to stagecoach,arriva etc- should be anglian railways for east anglia suburban service),one national semi-fast and one national express,with a price premium for the really fast one.

2)franchise times are too short,giving less visibility for TOC's to lease/buy rolling stock....these should probably be maybe 15 years long, with different "tier" charges for rolling stock from the leasing companies....if the TOC wants to buy a fleet from manufacturer directly ,with service costs from new and then sell on at the end of franchise to another TOC,then that could be done on a 15 year tier,so tier 2 is at a discount from tier 1 etc..as most rolling stock is in service from 30-45 years.

3)much simpler ticketing- not the airline variety,it doesn't work on trains as most journeys are done at very short notice....needs simply a tick box in the machine.

   ie where are you travelling?, what time? peak(any time), off peak(after 9.30am),weekend. What level train?...metro,metro+semi fast, any train.

4)lack of a coherent regional railcard strategy...by doing the above, you could have off peak discount travel for ALL, not just couples that happen to live near london.

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..add to that make metro franchises applicable tot he type of rolling stock they have to operate....ie lets go down to london, and who is currently operating trains on third rail DC electric....I think we have southern,thameslink,southeastern,southwest trains..maybe some more I've forgotten...it makes no sense each of these companies going to the lease/supplier and saying "I'll take  two dozen of those"........the price for each will be astronomical......if ONE company says "I'll take 200 thanks", the unit price per train comes down..

much better bargaining power.

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rough guess say four car commuter type multiple unit.

book price for one set individually probably about £5-6m

book price for 200 you could probably get about a 30% discount on it.

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1 hour ago, oracle said:

a company that makes a profit has the incentive to increase efficiency/reduce costs in the long run, so therefore will make investments in rolling stock etc that causes less wear to track,breaks down less often and requires less downtime in the service shed to get operational again.

the downside of the corporatist version of that is trying to pack everyone in like sardines,but theoretically if there are multiple operators running the same line-like an airline, you will have a choice between going no frills or taking a more luxurious route...and even in the no frills sector there will be emphasis on providing a decent-ish travel experience.

the basic problem we have vis a vis rail is any of the below options:

1)not enough competition on ALL routes,I've said before that we ought to probably have 3 overlapping franchises per area...one metro(12 I think required nationally in regions, not sporadic company lines sprawled over the country belonging to stagecoach,arriva etc- should be anglian railways for east anglia suburban service),one national semi-fast and one national express,with a price premium for the really fast one.

2)franchise times are too short,giving less visibility for TOC's to lease/buy rolling stock....these should probably be maybe 15 years long, with different "tier" charges for rolling stock from the leasing companies....if the TOC wants to buy a fleet from manufacturer directly ,with service costs from new and then sell on at the end of franchise to another TOC,then that could be done on a 15 year tier,so tier 2 is at a discount from tier 1 etc..as most rolling stock is in service from 30-45 years.

3)much simpler ticketing- not the airline variety,it doesn't work on trains as most journeys are done at very short notice....needs simply a tick box in the machine.

   ie where are you travelling?, what time? peak(any time), off peak(after 9.30am),weekend. What level train?...metro,metro+semi fast, any train.

4)lack of a coherent regional railcard strategy...by doing the above, you could have off peak discount travel for ALL, not just couples that happen to live near london.

 

 

 

 

 

A non inconmpitent government would always run a public service better than a private company. 

The cost will always be the same for the Equivilent service, only difference is one takes profit, also drives down standards to increase formentioned profit.

we don't need private companies running our services, we just need a better quality of non corrupt, intelligent public servants. Which we don't have.. 

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On 17/07/2017 at 10:11 AM, tomandlu said:

Indeed. I'm often mystified by the number of people who describe themselves as 'left-wing' - generally the boomers - who seem oblivious to the contradictions between being left-wing and pro-EU (in its current form).

It's odd that the loony left see the EU as a capitalist plot and the loony right see it as a socialist plot. 

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maybe because it is both.corporate socialism

spare a thought for the polish..I see the EU commission is now trying to browbeat them with regards to voting rights if the party line is not followed.

....we've been here before haven't we?...and I think the polish will probably end up siding with us once again...and the russians!....they see the incroachment of the mad mullahs as a "gates of vienna" moment, and the EU commission shares a complete polar opposite viewpoint.

 

so IMHO brexit WAS the right decision.We have reached an impasse with the EU,and it it time to sign the divorce papers.not to say we don't still have some friendship and common interests with some of the constituents,and we should still co-operate and try to be friendly, but as far as intimate relationships go it's the end of the road.

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Very interesting thread.

The neoliberal faith in the efficiency of the market has COMPLETELY failed. An idea that seems to make sense at first - that the consumer is better off if government stops regulating markets so that businesses can compete with one another - seems now to be a total fallacy.

Let me give you an example. i was struck by a news report from a few weeks ago about Ofcom investigating directory enquiry charges.

Remember when BT ran directory enquiries? Cost about 30p to find out a number and ask to be connected. 

Then they opened up the market to allow other firms to "compete, increase choice and drive down prices". And so what happened? How much cheaper is it now to call directory enquiries in the era of the Internet and cheap communications?

the answer is that the market is dominated by four firms who charge a MINIMUM of £5.50 with the big two companies charging £9.00

Stay on the phone for a brief time and you are racking up call rates at £4.50 a minute.

its a microcosm of everything that is going wrong with our society. From healthcare to university education to council services we are paying more and more for less and less.

The system is completely ****ed and yet most people don't realise it. They think the answer is to double-down on even more neoliberalism.

 

 

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On 18/07/2017 at 9:09 AM, DrBuyToLeech said:

Cultural Marxism is meaningless.

If the bible-bashing sister-marrying American right don't like you, you're a Marxist.  Gays are Marxist, Darwin was a Marxist.

Nonsense.

Marxism plays essentially no role in modern British or American society.  We live in a right-wing neoliberal world. That means culture is neoliberal. 

Turns out if there's no such thing as society, then there's no-one to tell a man he can't marry another man, there's no-one to stop a man identifying as a pan-sexual woman.

Turns out, if there's no such thing as society, then there's no such thing as nationality either. So stop complaining about immigration.

No society means no social norms, no roots and no traditions.

Amost all modern politics is about this battle, on the right, between neoliberalism and conservatism.

Free markets are awesome, but not the European single market.

Free markets are awesome, but that new estate will change the traditional character of the village. 

Free markets are awesome, but Allah says women shouldn't work. 

Neoliberalism isn't compatible with conservatism any more than it is compatible with socialism. 

The right just can't admit that they are trying to believe two incompatible things at the same time.

They can't stand that their own ideology has produced a world they don't much like, so they have to blame the ghosts of a politics they remember from childhood. 

Might have to quote that, seems bang on to me.

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On 17/07/2017 at 10:11 AM, tomandlu said:

Indeed. I'm often mystified by the number of people who describe themselves as 'left-wing' - generally the boomers - who seem oblivious to the contradictions between being left-wing and pro-EU (in its current form).

I'm mystified by the people who describe themselves as 'right-wing' - generally the boomers - who seems oblivious to the contradictions between being right-wing and pro-Brexit (in its current form).

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45 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

I'm mystified by the people who describe themselves as 'right-wing' - generally the boomers - who seems oblivious to the contradictions between being right-wing and pro-Brexit (in its current form).

I think you will find that pro-Brexit people have been labelled as right wing. They don't identify as such so it's just a slur spread around by leftist remoaners who dream about a communist run EU, death and starvation.

 

 

 

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