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Sledgehead

Southern train drivers reject £75,000 pay deal to end dispute

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14 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

I don't have an issue with them wanting something over £75k, I also have a similar view on aircraft pilots. Whilst we still have human operated systems that transport and which could kill hundreds of people let them make some money, I'd rather be driven by a happy train driver or flown by a happy and secure pilot than a depressed and suicidal one.

To be honest, given inflation, the average salary should probably be £60-70k by now anyway just to have stayed level. £60-70k really is not that much, that is what I was earning 2002 aged 28.

These jobs will go in a few years anyway, partly because people like me are automating them.

 

 

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So those wages inspire everyone else working for southern to ask for similar pay. Then the tickets surge. Oh dear. More inflation.

You may well have earned that when you were 28, but if you think the economy would stand still if everyone was on that piffling sum - as you see it - you are deluded.

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47 minutes ago, lulu said:

Greedy bastards, I bet most of the people who have the pleasure to be passengers on their trains earn far less. 

Bring on computer driven trains then we will see how employable these drivers are in other fields.

No different from most other people if they had the chance.

I don't agree with that level of pay but more people being automated away and humans just turning into useless lumps cossetted by robots is just depressing. Use the computers to do the stuff we can't, using them to do things that people can do and don't mind doing just seems incredibly stupid.

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56 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

Presumably your point being that people make mistakes and other people get hurt, and that a computer controlled system is less likely to. Fine if you want to live in a cotton wool wrapped world where people are utterly irrelevent and not able to do anything for themselves. Not so good if you don't.

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1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

Presumably your point being that people make mistakes and other people get hurt, and that a computer controlled system is less likely to. Fine if you want to live in a cotton wool wrapped world where people are utterly irrelevent and not able to do anything for themselves. Not so good if you don't.

As somebody who commutes by train, I do want to live in a world where the risk of train crashes is minimised. I don't need the tingly thrill of knowing I might be killed on my way to work to feel alive. If people want to do death-defying stuff they are free to take up extreme sports.

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7 hours ago, Dorkins said:

As somebody who commutes by train, I do want to live in a world where the risk of train crashes is minimised. I don't need the tingly thrill of knowing I might be killed on my way to work to feel alive. If people want to do death-defying stuff they are free to take up extreme sports.

TIf you perception of risk is really that out of kilter then I'm amazed that you manage to get out of bed in the morning without turning into a gibbering wreck at the thought of all the dangerous things in the world which might just kill you that day if you're incredibly unlucky. Anyway keep it going and you won't need to have work to go to because the machines will be doing that too, and you won't ever have to leave your protectice cocoon.

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Not sure why anyone could objectively argue against the wages the train drivers are getting. You get nothing for nothing, and the RMT has fought hard for their members pay and conditions for over two decades now. Some do not like to see the lower orders exercise such control over their lives, and I always find myself wondering why?

I suggest people resist the politics of envy, and instead of asking why these workers are getting that wage, perhaps you should be asking why you are not. As Mr Liebenstein suggests, shouldn't this be the average wage by now?

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10 hours ago, lulu said:

Greedy bastards, I bet most of the people who have the pleasure to be passengers on their trains earn far less. 

Bring on computer driven trains then we will see how employable these drivers are in other fields.

Seems to me then, that the drivers should get as much as they can while they can!

I wonder if you will be quite so enthusiastic about automation once Mr Liebenstein writes some code that makes your function redundant? I can guarantee you that there will be people earning half your wages thinking "greedy *******, serves 'em right".

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 expect the average exec looking after Grenfell House gets much more than that...and they killed many in just one week preceded by years of incompetence.

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10 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Fine if you want to live in a cotton wool wrapped world where people are utterly irrelevent and not able to do anything for themselves. Not so good if you don't.

AFAIK the Grenfell tower tragedy was started by a Hotpoint fridge freezer. Bekko (sp?) have had similar problems. In that instance, insulation in the power cable supplying the in-door drinks chiller broke down from flex fatigue and caused a short that set the cable insulation alight, and thence the entire flat.

Now you might have thought someone capable of predicting this catastrophic failure. You might have thought the owner of the fridge would have taken a moment from their busy life and stuck around until they could smell the burning.

In both cases the human element failed to solve the problem. But that's okay. Just because we can reduce risk , doesn't mean we should, right? That is what you are saying.

I can see why you are saying it: what will be left for us to do? Don't you think they said the same thing when the spinning jenny was invented? And yet the population has mushroomed and lives have become richer and more varied.

Now, if you want to talk resources and sustainable population, fine. We can have that conversation. But make no mistake; the idea that progress can arbitrarily be stopped just to give people something to do is nothing new. They had a name for its advocates back in the industrial revolution. I'm sure I don't need to tell you what it was.

 

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1 hour ago, Errol said:

Humans are always the weak point in machines. Hence why we will all be in fully automated planes etc in the near future.

Which? magazine are saying today that IOT devices are compromising people's security.

But this is nothing new, and not really a problem of the device itself. An IOT kettle will boil water. So job done.

But that just makes it equivalent to a free or perhaps pirated piece of useful software - an app etc. Sure, it will let you edit pdfs or id songs by audio recognition. But it can also allow other things - malicious things - to happen.

We all know the name for that piece of malware: a trojan (horse).

And that's really what these rushed-together IOT devices are. Trojan devices. They make your water hot. Organise and arrange your house mood lighting. Lovely. 

But the human that wrote the firmware and software didn't bother to think how they could be used to punch a hole through your lan security and allow malicious code to operate within your home network. And neither did the buyer.

So the developer now does a better job and we can all remain blissfully ignorant, wrapped in our "cotton wool" existence. We all become less knowledgeable. There's clear truth in that. But you could say the same about disposing of human waste.

What would the average city dweller do w/o the sewerage system? Could they cope will the quantity of poo their family makes? Unlikely. We leave it all to the professionals and their automated processing and monitoring systems. We instead sit at our desks sipping our skinny lattes. And we are pretty happy with that arrangement. 'Course, if you really believe automation is the enemy, you should mix up a bucket of cement right now and pour it down your loo, roll your sleeves up and dig a cesspit. You won't be needing that skinny latte either ...

 

 

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1 hour ago, AThirdWay said:

I suggest people resist the politics of envy, and instead of asking why these workers are getting that wage, perhaps you should be asking why you are not. As Mr Liebenstein suggests, shouldn't this be the average wage by now?

Best post of this thread.

Nobody seems to complain when banksters and CEOs get tens of millions, but when a train driver gets 75K everybody is up in arms.

Class thinking at its worst.

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17 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

'Course, if you really believe automation is the enemy, you should mix up a bucket of cement right now and pour it down your loo, roll your sleeves up and dig a cesspit. You won't be needing that skinny latte either ...

Have you not noticed the persistent popularity of the story of the average joe thrust into a brutal life or death struggle in a post apocalyptic world? I think everyone secretly believes their lives would be richer and more visceral if circumstance allowed them to return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle with all the associated jeopardy.

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57 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

What would the average city dweller do w/o the sewerage system? Could they cope will the quantity of poo their family makes? Unlikely. We leave it all to the professionals and their automated processing and monitoring systems. We instead sit at our desks sipping our skinny lattes. And we are pretty happy with that arrangement. 'Course, if you really believe automation is the enemy, you should mix up a bucket of cement right now and pour it down your loo, roll your sleeves up and dig a cesspit. You won't be needing that skinny latte either ...

It's about finding a decent balance.

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31 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Have you not noticed the persistent popularity of the story of the average joe thrust into a brutal life or death struggle in a post apocalyptic world? I think everyone secretly believes their lives would be richer and more visceral if circumstance allowed them to return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle with all the associated jeopardy.

Because there are aspects to it where they would be. Only aspects mind you, not necessarily the net picture. Being a useless blob who doesn't ever need to lift a finger, and never has to worry about any chance of getting hurt might have some immediate appeal but after a while I'm sure it would pall for most. There's a tendency to over-compensate - neither the post apocalyptic world nor the mollycoddled cotton wool one would turn out to be what the people after them really want.

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