Petition: Restore sanity to the public finances of the United Kingdom

[MattW]

I know not everyone on this forum is a fan of petitions but thought I should post nevertheless. It was only started today by 'Southbank Investment Research'. I hope that this petition can gather some momentum.

link!

Quote

UK government debt now stands above £1,700,000,000,000, excluding the future liabilities of unfunded public pensions and nuclear decommissioning. This madness has to stop - we must protect our children from the price of this addiction to debt and overspending.

We the undersigned, as concerned citizens of the United Kingdom, believing in sound money and responsible public finances, do call on parliament and the Office of Budget Responsibility to:

1. Produce a clear plan to reduce the government debt and live within our means with a properly balanced budget. 
2. Legislate to introduce a debt ceiling to prevent our public debt increasing beyond £2 trillion.

 

[adamLancs]

I see sentiment turning away from debt reduction and the Corbyn crowd seems to be scooping up because of it. The reason - the rise of social inequality.

You can't save the bankers and the rich and homeowners and expect people to keep cheering for austerity. It's been done, and it was done wrong.

I really don't see anybody winning an election by telling people we must "live within our means", however true it might be.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Don't be ridiculous, we can borrow as much as we like and nothing bad will ever happen. Anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi or a Zionist or a Tory or something.

[Peter Hun]

Brexit means Brexit.

[doomed]

Debt based money system and reducing debt in system are not compatible. Have a look at any debt growth graph: debt will continue to increase exponentially until it doesn't and the fun begins.

[Riedquat]

11 hours ago, adamLancs said:

I see sentiment turning away from debt reduction and the Corbyn crowd seems to be scooping up because of it. The reason - the rise of social inequality.

You can't save the bankers and the rich and homeowners and expect people to keep cheering for austerity. It's been done, and it was done wrong.

I really don't see anybody winning an election by telling people we must "live within our means", however true it might be.

It's been really badly mishandled, for the reasons you give, but the trend to completely ignore very, very simple truths like ever increasing debt (or ever increasing anything) is unsustainable, and creates big problems even before it really hits the fan, is extremely worrying. 2+2=5 and it's impossible to contemplate anything else, because the changes necessary to readjust to reality will be too painful for all those who live under the assumption that 2+2=5.

[Funn3r]

Our finances are strong and stable. Now let's move on to talk about something really important such as why you should never vote for someone with such a scraggly beard

[zugzwang]

This thread is insane. Private sector debt leverage caused the GFC and continues to exert a deathly grip on the UK's economic prospects. There's been no recovery since 2008 because too great a share of our national output is still being directed to the financial sector via mortgage interest payments and rent extraction, something Osborne and Cameron should have sought to undermine and reverse rather than reinforce and extend. Their decision to re-leverage the private sector via an echo housing bubble while simultaneously borrowing £650bn on international markets to subsidise fat cat bonuses is arguably the greatest act of economic vandalism ever visited upon this country.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by zugzwang

[Sour Mash]

15 hours ago, adamLancs said:

I see sentiment turning away from debt reduction and the Corbyn crowd seems to be scooping up because of it. The reason - the rise of social inequality.

You can't save the bankers and the rich and homeowners and expect people to keep cheering for austerity. It's been done, and it was done wrong.

I really don't see anybody winning an election by telling people we must "live within our means", however true it might be.

Recent policies have had nothing to do with 'Austerity' or "living within one's means" and everything to do with throwing money at the people who caused the mess (lenders and borrowers) with the effect of bailing out crooks and idiots and making the rich even richer. 

 

It's no wonder that the public is finally rebelling against them ... though they still don't seem to grasp exactly what is going on and just see it as a generalised inequality thing, which is a bit worrying as it means they might get behind a superficially different set of wrongheaded policies instead.

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, Sour Mash said:

Recent policies have had nothing to do with 'Austerity' or "living within one's means" and everything to do with throwing money at the people who caused the mess (lenders and borrowers) with the effect of bailing out crooks and idiots and making the rich even richer. 

 

It's no wonder that the public is finally rebelling against them ... though they still don't seem to grasp exactly what is going on and just see it as a generalised inequality thing, which is a bit worrying as it means they might get behind a superficially different set of wrongheaded policies instead.

Exactly SM. No one makes any money out of debt-reduction except those that caused it in the first place. Ironic!

I think the TPTB have it backwards, nobody is talking about policies that might make more money.

Bankers and corporations should pay their due on a pay to play basis. The taxes paid should then be put towards fast and relevent (re)education of workers and national businesses with export potential. Once money starts coming into the country, then it ought to be put to improving peoples lives.

Finally a tax on all that is shiny. All the unnessary trickets of consumerism.

I am sure there is more, but can't get my brain past 3rd gear as it's Friday.


 

 

[Stateless]

5 hours ago, doomed said:

Debt based money system and reducing debt in system are not compatible. Have a look at any debt growth graph: debt will continue to increase exponentially until it doesn't and the fun begins.

Unfortunately, I think most of the people on here, don't understand how money is created, which is very scary since the average HPCer is streaks ahead of the general public. 

Simple, If you don't understand what doomed said, go read some more. 

[Parkwell]

1 hour ago, Stateless said:

Unfortunately, I think most of the people on here, don't understand how money is created, which is very scary since the average HPCer is streaks ahead of the general public. 

Simple, If you don't understand what doomed said, go read some more. 

For anyone wanting to join some of the dots up the linked doc in this thread is well worth a read.

 

[BorrowToLeech]

22 hours ago, zugzwang said:

This thread is insane. Private sector debt leverage caused the GFC and continues to exert a deathly grip on the UK's economic prospects. There's been no recovery since 2008 because too great a share of our national output is still being directed to the financial sector via mortgage interest payments and rent extraction, something Osborne and Cameron should have sought to undermine and reverse rather than reinforce and extend. Their decision to re-leverage the private sector via an echo housing bubble while simultaneously borrowing £650bn on international markets to subsidise fat cat bonuses is arguably the greatest act of economic vandalism ever visited upon this country.

 

21 hours ago, Sour Mash said:

Recent policies have had nothing to do with 'Austerity' or "living within one's means" and everything to do with throwing money at the people who caused the mess (lenders and borrowers) with the effect of bailing out crooks and idiots and making the rich even richer. 

 

It's no wonder that the public is finally rebelling against them ... though they still don't seem to grasp exactly what is going on and just see it as a generalised inequality thing, which is a bit worrying as it means they might get behind a superficially different set of wrongheaded policies instead.

Great posts, absolutely spot on. 

Now we have to go through the frustration of seeing a population start to realise that something is up but not understanding what it is, even though the problem has been obvious since at least 2003, and undeniable since 2008.  

[crashmonitor]

Well to be clear 4.21% of the pie went to implicit bank subsidies lost in other expenditure here. I guess a lot of the welfare gets recycled to the top too in the form of housing benefit and creating consumers for business. I'm sure Wonga, Vanquis  and Imperial Brands UK would die a death without welfare.. But if you are not poor, old or rich, you probably are not getting much fizz for your buck out of  the national debt. Just have to worry if there will be any bucks left when we get old.

 

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_total_spending_pie_chart

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by crashmonitor

[mathschoc]

Austerity has gone too far, govt should slap on 50% tax on second homes, and tax by consumption- more tax on luxury goods.

 

 

[maverick73]

7 hours ago, mathschoc said:

Austerity has gone too far, govt should slap on 50% tax on second homes, and tax by consumption- more tax on luxury goods.

 

 

The latter will happen, once those willing to work manual jobs leave our shores, that burden falls to the locals who are unemployed. The next chapter entitled work for your benefits

No one complained in 2003 when cheap credit was unleaded on to the masses. They only complain now, when the benefits were squeezed.

[Arbitrage]

On 22/06/2017 at 9:26 PM, MattW said:

I know not everyone on this forum is a fan of petitions but thought I should post nevertheless. It was only started today by 'Southbank Investment Research'. I hope that this petition can gather some momentum.

link!

 

I pay over £400 every month into the bog standard teachers' pension scheme. I've been teaching for 30 years.

At 5% compound interest, the government owes me £612 000

I really resent those who try to make out that my pension (if I ever get it) is a freebie, that I've not paid for

[PopGun]

On 23/06/2017 at 4:16 PM, Stateless said:

Unfortunately, I think most of the people on here, don't understand how money is created, which is very scary since the average HPCer is streaks ahead of the general public. 

Simple, If you don't understand what doomed said, go read some more. 

Demands for Balanced budgets is the main give away. 

[Sterling Loss]

1 hour ago, Arbitrage said:

I pay over £400 every month into the bog standard teachers' pension scheme. I've been teaching for 30 years.

At 5% compound interest, the government owes me £612 000

I really resent those who try to make out that my pension (if I ever get it) is a freebie, that I've not paid for

My workings are ((1.05^30-1)/0.05)*400*12*1.025= £329 k ish. Not sure how you get 612k.

This assumes you've been paying £400 flat for 30 years into a final salary scheme, but member contributions are a % of salary and presumably £400 relates to current salary.  It seems likely the compounded amount of actual £ contributions at 5% would be much, much lower, unless you've been paying AVCs at a hefty amount throughout  (although you say it's bog standard, and virtually no-one does this).

If you were able to take a transfer value of your accrued pension, it would almost certainly be much bigger than 600k with 15 year gilts yielding less than 1.5%.

Compare that with the majority of the working population in money purchase schemes putting money into asset bubbles each month, who cannot hope to get anything like 600k. Also those on zero hours contracts and the self employed.

You've got an asset the value of a current London property at a 1980s price.

[maverick73]

34 minutes ago, Sterling Loss said:

My workings are ((1.05^30-1)/0.05)*400*12*1.025= £329 k ish. Not sure how you get 612k.

This assumes you've been paying £400 flat for 30 years into a final salary scheme, but member contributions are a % of salary and presumably £400 relates to current salary.  It seems likely the compounded amount of actual £ contributions at 5% would be much, much lower, unless you've been paying AVCs at a hefty amount throughout  (although you say it's bog standard, and virtually no-one does this).

If you were able to take a transfer value of your accrued pension, it would almost certainly be much bigger than 600k with 15 year gilts yielding less than 1.5%.

Compare that with the majority of the working population in money purchase schemes putting money into asset bubbles each month, who cannot hope to get anything like 600k. Also those on zero hours contracts and the self employed.

You've got an asset the value of a current London property at a 1980s price.

Final Salary Pensions

[Funn3r]

12 minutes ago, maverick73 said:

Final Salary Pensions

Which might I add were compulsory to join; it's not like people are jammy bastards for being a member. They had literally no choice except to pack in their job.

[mrtickle]

2 hours ago, Arbitrage said:

I pay over £400 every month into the bog standard teachers' pension scheme. I've been teaching for 30 years.

At 5% compound interest, the government owes me £612 000

I really resent those who try to make out that my pension (if I ever get it) is a freebie, that I've not paid for

 

50 minutes ago, Sterling Loss said:

You've got an asset the value of a current London property at a 1980s price.

Hope this explains why people resent your almost-"freebie" pension, Arbitrage. You should not resent those people who are rightly furious. You should realise how incredibly lucky you are, and keep your head down.

[mrtickle]

On 2017-6-22 at 9:26 PM, MattW said:

I know not everyone on this forum is a fan of petitions but thought I should post nevertheless. It was only started today by 'Southbank Investment Research'. I hope that this petition can gather some momentum.

link!

 

Thanks - signed.

 

[maverick73]

11 minutes ago, mrtickle said:

Thanks - signed.

 

Agreed. I read / sense emotional rants, if they were in the other persons shoes what would they have done. I'd like to see prices drop, but I won't wait forever life is not infinite.