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"Housing really is central to everything" - Richard Murphy blog

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25 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

This is how we end up with a terrible housing stock, the tiny homes, the dangerous homes, the damp homes.

As opposed to ending up with mile after mile of bloated, bland urban sprawl that's all appeared in a relatively short time. Ultimately the only really good position is if there is no increase in demand because there's no increase in people needing houses (even if you accept the position that the current situation is mostly  driven by the, as it says, management of demand and pushing up the prices).

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1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

As opposed to ending up with mile after mile of bloated, bland urban sprawl that's all appeared in a relatively short time. Ultimately the only really good position is if there is no increase in demand because there's no increase in people needing houses (even if you accept the position that the current situation is mostly  driven by the, as it says, management of demand and pushing up the prices).

Meanwhile in the last two decades succesive Governments have bent over backwards to create a demand for housing units principally in allowing uncontrolled immigration and creating peak education in University towns and cities. Both of which have been manna from heaven for rentiers and private holders of mortgage debt who have geared interests in hpi.

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16 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

I second that.

We all know what they problem is, THEY all know what the problem is...the problem is getting THEM to self harm and change course.

Indy Ref, no change

EU ref, no change

G.E., no change,

Day of anger, 68 luxuty flats gifted to poor desperate people.

I think there's a clue in there what the only game changer is going to be.

 

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6 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

Meanwhile in the last two decades succesive Governments have bent over backwards to create a demand for housing units principally in allowing uncontrolled immigration and creating peak education in University towns and cities. Both of which have been manna from heaven for rentiers and private holders of mortgage debt who have geared interests in hpi.

As I said above...we all know what the problems are....what are people going to do about it ?

I ran the house price mania twitter feed for 18 months, no one is really interested.

The people on the pyramiad dont want to rock the boat as their paper wealth ( that they'll never see or benefit from ) will evaporate over night.

The establishment have the rest of us exactly where they want us, beholden to them and unable to break the chains of financial slavery.

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1 hour ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

As I said above...we all know what the problems are....what are people going to do about it ?

I ran the house price mania twitter feed for 18 months, no one is really interested.

The people on the pyramiad dont want to rock the boat as their paper wealth ( that they'll never see or benefit from ) will evaporate over night.

The establishment have the rest of us exactly where they want us, beholden to them and unable to break the chains of financial slavery.

The destruction of democracy by creditors and property owners isn't a new phenomenon. Aristotle was writing about the same thing happening in Athens circa 330 BC. How wealthy families emerge and establish themselves as financial oligarchies indebting a rising proportion of the population to themselves in the process. The One Percent have always been with us.

 

 

Edited by zugzwang

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2 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I agree with you.

I actually would prefer a population of about 5 million souls for the entirety of Britain. Think of the space, the resources!

If machines are going to do all the work as they say, I'd like us to re-design our material world to improve quality of life.

That does not negate the changes to the land and money system though.

5 Million, Like New Zealand but they still 'dont have enough land' for housing.  ditto AUS 3 million square miles,24 million people and 'they aren't making any more land you know' says the entire RE agency, compliant press and half the population. 

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11 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The destruction of democracy by creditors and property owners isn't a new phenomenon. Aristotle was writing about the same thing happening in Athens circa 330 BC. How wealthy families emerge and establish themselves as financial oligarchies indebting a rising proportion of the population to themselves in the process. The One Percent have always been with us.

 

 

And only ever changed with a revolution or a war no doubt.
 

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2 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I second that.

Third that, so do all my mates, my mother and grandmother......hears hoping common sense will prevail for the common man.;)

 

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Very good article. As it says, "Mortgage lending is now the main function of British banking ... When the banks create a new mortgage loan they create new money, and they create this credit often for existing property or land purchase, not new investment. This infinite supply of money in the form of mortgages interacts with a finite supply of land, inflating house prices."

It's a scam. A massive scam.

Even if you could afford a house, you're just being scammed. 

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5 hours ago, zugzwang said:

The destruction of democracy by creditors and property owners isn't a new phenomenon. Aristotle was writing about the same thing happening in Athens circa 330 BC. How wealthy families emerge and establish themselves as financial oligarchies indebting a rising proportion of the population to themselves in the process. The One Percent have always been with us.

 

 

That's the problem with most ultra liberal, capitalist, theologies - they assume that people who acquire enough wealth legitimately won't use their wealth to change the rules in their favour.

Similarly, they assume that poor people wont just ignore the rules, and will just sit their being poor rather than just stealing stuff. 

The system is unstable and will always degenerate into rent-seeking at the top and either some form of benefit system or some form of repressive police state for the proles. 

Edited by DrBuyToLeech

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8 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I agree with you.

I actually would prefer a population of about 5 million souls for the entirety of Britain. Think of the space, the resources!

If machines are going to do all the work as they say, I'd like us to re-design our material world to improve quality of life.

That does not negate the changes to the land and money system though.

the new gaia religeon already has that one mapped out for you...and if you watch carefully you can see it coming vis a vis terrorism.

stage 1)herd people into mega-districts(lets say london)...people of differing world/political/religeous viewpoints

stage 2)forment local conflict by means of contrived or otherwise incidents to spark off unrest

stage 3) forment international incident to restrict supply of basic resources..and blame it on target scapegoat.

..then sit back,relax and in their view"watch the world heal itself from excessive extraction of resources"

 

..BTW the deagal figures for britain were down to 19 million in UK by 2025,so I guess you'll be a bit disappointed...but what guarantees do you have that you will be part of the remnant to enjoy all that extra space?

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7 hours ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

Understands the economics, and then reverts to the supply shortage nonsense.  5/10. 

the shortage isn't nonsense...without conditions of scarcity and competitive bidding there is no mechanism for inflation . Scarcity runs in parallel with easy credit to create the disaster we live with now.

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12 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I agree with you.

I actually would prefer a population of about 5 million souls for the entirety of Britain. Think of the space, the resources!

If machines are going to do all the work as they say, I'd like us to re-design our material world to improve quality of life.

That does not negate the changes to the land and money system though.

 

We already have space and resources.  

It's just that resources are very much tilted to winning vested interests, in a damaging paradigm where HPI+++ = growth.  And housing resources been grabbed by the millions by BTLers.

We could do wonderful things, and have plenty, with double or triple today's population, if we had a system which was fairer.   Advances.

We're in a battle against the most narrow self interest who don't want to give up on their mad-gainz/position.   It's hard to get a man to understand something when his position/ego depends on not understanding it.   Then HTB solutions.  IDS bigging up landlords as housing suppliers..... on and on it goes.

Quote

The number of Huguenots who sought refuge in England was so large, in relation to a national population of perhaps five and a half million at the end of the seventeenth century, that assimilation and intermarriage mean that most English readers of this journal will have some Huguenot blood in their veins.

http://www.historytoday.com/robin-gwynn/englands-first-refugees

 

 

Edited by Venger

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On 6/11/2017 at 2:21 PM, pig said:

...The biggest, widest, most beautiful horizon on earth is... other people.

That's in part why people flock to cities, and why urban density, for all its challenges, tends to generate civilisation elevating ideas.

I do love lying in a sunny field rippling in the breeze, carrying the scent of a thousand others. But if forced to make a choice, for me Other People are part of the solution, not part of the 'problem'.

That's a great post by pig.

Although I push back at the view of being farmed by the narrow self-interests who want homeownership HPI+ galore and multiple BTL for themselves (or those who support it as good thing for their own self-interests such as HPI+++  haha it's a great laugh / spare homes to rent out), and renting under 2 month notice contracts for other people vs extreme HPI and HPI growth worship.

In the Culture series of Sci-Fi book... billions of people live in luxury and comfort on each GSV Culture star-ships (with some exceptions for GSVs carrying out other works), and there are millions of Culture GSV star-ships.

Quote

Although it was only four kilometres in height, the Plate class General Systems Vehicle Little Rascal was
fully fifty-three in length, and twenty-two across the beam.
The topside rear park covered an area of
four hundred square kilometres, and the craft's overall length, from end-to-end of its outermost field, was
a little over ninety kilometres. It was ship-construction rather than accommodation biased, so there were
only two hundred and fifty million people on it.

 

Quote

 

..it's like every human in population being slightly different, almost their own individual species despite appearances.

-Matter.  Iain M. Banks

 

 

I have to wonder if all those wanting really low population see themselves there mixing it with the special ones enjoying all the resources and space excitement/freedom etc.

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1 hour ago, Venger said:

In the Culture series of Sci-Fi book... billions of people live in luxury and comfort on each GSV Culture star-ships (with some exceptions for GSVs carrying out other works), and there are millions of Culture GSV star-ships.

I've read them. It sounds an unpleasant way to spend your life.

Quote

I have to wonder if all those wanting really low population see themselves there mixing it with the special ones enjoying all the resources and space excitement/freedom etc.

Who's said anything about low population? Just not absurdly high population. Not sure what the rest of that's supposed to mean though.

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And millions of Orbitals in different systems of that galaxy, each with billions of people.    The earliest ones built without engines, but advancement soon having Orbitals with engines so they can be moved in an emergency.  

A few planets, but from Millenniums back, with terraforming/populating empty planets thought to be 'ecologically insensitive to put it mildly' vs building orbitals.

 

Quote

He stayed at the house for the next fifteen days. He talked, guardedly, with the old rector during that
time. He still felt they didn't really know each other when he left, but perhaps they knew a little more of
each other's societies.

Hamin obviously found it hard to believe the Culture really did do without money. 'But what if I do want
something unreasonable?'
'What?'
'My own planet?' Hamin wheezed with laughter.
'How can you own a planet?' Gurgeh shook his head.

'But supposing I wanted one?'
'I suppose if you found an unoccupied one you could land without anybody becoming annoyed…
perhaps that would work. But how would you stop other people landing there too?'
'Could I not buy a fleet of warships?'
'All our ships are sentient. You could certainly try telling a ship what to do… but I don't think you'd get
very far.'
'Your ships think they're sentient!' Hamin chuckled.  'A common delusion shared by some of our human citizens.'

Hamin:  Didn't the Culture forbid anything ?
Gurgeh attempted to explain there were no written laws, but almost no crime anyway. There was the
occasional crime of passion, but little else. It was difficult to get away with
anything anyway, when everybody had a terminal, but there were very few motives left too.

-Player of Games

We have too many minds tilted with view Hamins with over-inflated sense of self-worth over other people, imo.

Other people being 'lessor'.   Always believing you personally to be superior to most other people - believing you know what is best for other people and that other people's options are mistakes/lessor. (There was a Radio 4 show about that the other day).

[Guard Against] The Incredible Conceit of the Individual

(Lady - Lt. Philip Gerard's wife - is temporarily blind after a bus crash overturn, taken to a town evacuated because of high flood risk)

 

Edited by Venger

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12 hours ago, steve99 said:

5 Million, Like New Zealand but they still 'dont have enough land' for housing.  ditto AUS 3 million square miles,24 million people and 'they aren't making any more land you know' says the entire RE agency, compliant press and half the population. 

So maybe they don't. You've got enough land for more housing when you can build them without pissing anyone off.

A bit closer to home (since I've been there but haven't been to NZ to have any feel of what it's like) the difference between the UK and France is very noticable, France being roughly twice the area and the same population, and it's definitely in France's favour. And it's not lacking for those who like the city life either. Large numbers of people doesn't appear to bother some, fair enough, everyone's different. But they do seem unable to comprehend that it's entirely legitimate to not share that view, and that a change in the direction that would give more to those who relish the uninteruppted distances wouldn't mean they lost a thing, we'd just have a place where more of us can have what we want.

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