Jeremy424 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Locke said: So you want to tell me that Drug Corps using the power of the State to force people to use their drugs is free market capitalism? Remember that the State wants you dead for smoking whatever it is which gives you these ideas. What we have in the US (and any country following the same ideology) now is a corrupt form of corporatism masquerading as 'free market capitalism'. The branding is that because it is 'free' then it must automatically be the best of the available options. What they don't tell you is the immense effort taken to sabotage alternatives (look at the US's sordid history with what they call 'communism'). It's not that those alternatives would have been much more successful than their preferred option, but in the process of sabotage they often create a situation that is x10 worse than if they were allowed to fail by themselves. Think of it in terms of 'hard' and 'soft' failure. Those in government generally want to do the right thing, but they have been captured and have their hands tied by vested interests. It therefore becomes easier to follow the path of least resistance. The labels are not that important really because freedom is relaitive. What we're interested in is the historic way a group of humans have managed to game most of the world for their own interests at the expense of the rest of us. They've helped create a system that is psychopathic and far more dangerous than individuals with that illness having the levers of power . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, dugsbody said: Did he actually say that? Seemed to be a eulogy to Chavez personally rather than saying he admired Venezuela in the current state. I sound like a stuck record but given a choice between Scandinavian policies and the UK policies of the last X years, which would you prefer? Because Corbyn is more aligned to Scandinavian policies than anything else. No he's not. Scandinavian countries are among the easiest places to do business in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index The Corbynator doesn't believe in making life easy for business. The British Left is nothing like the Scandinavian Left (well, it's actually probably the Scandinavian Right that are not like the Tories tbh)... I think perhaps because a lot of the Scandi nations had Stalin on their doorstep so overt Marxism never really got going there. Unlike here. Edited June 15, 2017 by EUBanana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 5 hours ago, Mine the wheatfield said: By wooing the DUP, the Tory Party is expediting it's demise. By getting into bed with Creationist, anti-abortion nutters they're holding a pillow over their own face. There's a certain poetic justice in it. The lib-dems, as the smaller coalition party, got screwed. Now, although still the larger party, the tables have been turned on the tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 2 hours ago, iamnumerate said: Sadly although the current system is bad, Corbyn would be even worse. A bit like shooting yourself in the head to cure a headache. Please show your workings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, tomandlu said: Please show your workings. I would have thought the postwar history of the UK would suffice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 15 minutes ago, tomandlu said: Please show your workings. Look at the countries he admires, Cuba, Venezuela etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 25 minutes ago, EUBanana said: I would have thought the postwar history of the UK would suffice. Most politicians are merely instruments of misdirection and distraction. I don't know what Corbyn will bring - but there are a number of things in his favour. He listens He has an inclusive agenda He is consistent He roots for the underdog (an Olde English foible) He is not a Tory (or NuLabour), hence a break from the status quo that has done so much damage to this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Most politicians are merely instruments of misdirection and distraction. I don't know what Corbyn will bring - but there are a number of things in his favour. He listens He has an inclusive agenda He is consistent He roots for the underdog (an Olde English foible) He is not a Tory (or NuLabour), hence a break from the status quo that has done so much damage to this country This is all just smoke. Reminds me of 1997. "Time for a change", with Tone, one of us, he listens, he roots for the underdog, he's someone you could have a pint with. The only substantive thing he had was "He's not a Tory". How ... convincing. And the status quo could always be worse. A lot worse. Suggesions are that in his case it actually will be a lot worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: Most politicians are merely instruments of misdirection and distraction. I don't know what Corbyn will bring - but there are a number of things in his favour. He listens He has an inclusive agenda He is consistent He roots for the underdog (an Olde English foible) He is not a Tory (or NuLabour), hence a break from the status quo that has done so much damage to this country He consistently supported terrorist groups - that is not a point in his favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, EUBanana said: And the status quo could always be worse. A lot worse. Suggesions are that in his case it actually will be a lot worse. Sadly true - I didn't think things could get worse in 1997 but they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Most politicians are merely instruments of misdirection and distraction. He roots for the underdog (an Olde English foible) Not if they are Jewish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Just now, EUBanana said: This is all just smoke. We'll see Banana. You are right a Marxist in power is deeply worrying, but it's about balance. He has always been a real labour man, his cohorts might keep some of the Leninist stuff at bay. Better than having the fecking banks totally in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, iamnumerate said: Not if they are Jewish. Are you talking about this IAM?http://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/ http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/israel-lobby-anti-semitism-battle-uk-labour-party-170113073206692.html Edited June 15, 2017 by jonb2 more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: We'll see Banana. You are right a Marxist in power is deeply worrying, but it's about balance. He has always been a real labour man, his cohorts might keep some of the Leninist stuff at bay. Better than having the fecking banks totally in charge. I don't like the current system but a history of the soviet union shows that is not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, iamnumerate said: Not if they are Jewish. Oh wow, he's really got under your skin hasn't he. Breath of fresh air to me, a change, and boy do we need it. We've followed this path since Blair got into power really and it's been worse since 2010 with a forced ideology of austerity that's led to a massive transfer of wealth to the 1% from the 99%. I'm no socialist, but this fella has made an awful lot of sense, unlike May with a completely un-costed manifesto that reeked of impending tax rises to pay for the largest shown to corporations; I am willing to bet a few bob those taxes wouldn't have been dropped at the doors of the rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: Oh wow, he's really got under your skin hasn't he. Breath of fresh air to me, a change, and boy do we need it. We've followed this path since Blair got into power really and it's been worse since 2010 with a forced ideology of austerity that's led to a massive transfer of wealth to the 1% from the 99%. I'm no socialist, but this fella has made an awful lot of sense, unlike May with a completely un-costed manifesto that reeked of impending tax rises to pay for the largest shown to corporations; I am willing to bet a few bob those taxes wouldn't have been dropped at the doors of the rich. I am very concerned about him, this is what the Guardian said about him in 1996, it was true then still is now - despite the mess we are in. Quote “Every few years, the London Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn indulges his romantic support for Irish republicans by using his parliamentary privileges to give them a publicity platform. These occasions always also provide a showcase for Mr Corbyn’s abiding qualities: his lack of wider political and moral judgment, his predilection for gesture politics, his insensitivity to the feelings of most Londoners and his indifference to the policies of his party… Mr Corbyn’s actions do not advance the cause of peace in Northern Ireland and are not seriously intended to do so. It is surprising that a politician as clever and important as the Sinn Fein leader should be bothered with him. Grown-up people ought to keep this childish sideshow in perspective. Mr Corbyn is a fool, and a fool whom the Labour Party would probably be better off without.” https://order-order.com/2017/06/02/guardian-endorses-corbyn/ He wants the benefit cap to be scrapped - how does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeremy424 said: Those in government generally want to do the right thing, but they have been captured and have their hands tied by vested interests. I disagree. Only high power psychopaths are able to negotiate their ways into and through the halls of political power. The system selects for the most capable human predators. The State does not exist to serve the population. It exists solely to siphon wealth from tax cattle to politically connected individuals. Every State action suddenly makes sense with this knowledge. The farmer does not provide more space for his cattle, because he likes them or intends to free them, but because it results in more profit for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 42 minutes ago, jonb2 said: We'll see Banana. You are right a Marxist in power is deeply worrying, but it's about balance. He has always been a real labour man, his cohorts might keep some of the Leninist stuff at bay. Better than having the fecking banks totally in charge. That'd be my only hope if he does end up in charge. The PLP have some saner heads amidst the Leninist nutters. Maybe he won't have that much freedom to act. God knows I'm no Tory (Not voted them for many years now), I just don't think Corbyn is going to be any sort of improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Frais Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 7 hours ago, Mine the wheatfield said: By wooing the DUP, the Tory Party is expediting it's demise. By getting into bed with Creationist, anti-abortion nutters they're holding a pillow over their own face. People will forgive anything if you give them a nice comfy house with a garden and rooms for the kids. They where dead the moment they stopped the fall of housing costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 57 minutes ago, iamnumerate said: I am very concerned about him, this is what the Guardian said about him in 1996, it was true then still is now - despite the mess we are in. https://order-order.com/2017/06/02/guardian-endorses-corbyn/ He wants the benefit cap to be scrapped - how does that make sense? I don't really care, what he did help was start a peace process which ultimately led to the IRA stopping bombing and brought a start to lasting peace in NI, which is what we all wanted, no? Seeing that the benefit cap is £20k outside of London, including HB, I think he's right to scrap it and start taxing those who earn a lot, a lot more. Most of the folk on benefits need them and I am not one for putting people either on the streets or in the food banks and that's the alternative. We disagree completely, I think he's a breath of fresh air that would induce change, or at least shake shit up and it needs to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 Just now, HairyOb1 said: I don't really care, what he did help was start a peace process which ultimately led to the IRA stopping bombing and brought a start to lasting peace in NI, which is what we all wanted, no? Seeing that the benefit cap is £20k outside of London, including HB, I think he's right to scrap it and start taxing those who earn a lot, a lot more. Most of the folk on benefits need them and I am not one for putting people either on the streets or in the food banks and that's the alternative. We disagree completely, I think he's a breath of fresh air that would induce change, or at least shake shit up and it needs to happen. Why not raise the benefit cap rather than scrap it? Or do you want people getting £50k p.a. in benefits again? He didn't help the peace process at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: I don't really care, what he did help was start a peace process which ultimately led to the IRA stopping bombing and brought a start to lasting peace in NI, which is what we all wanted, no? Seeing that the benefit cap is £20k outside of London, including HB, I think he's right to scrap it and start taxing those who earn a lot, a lot more. Most of the folk on benefits need them and I am not one for putting people either on the streets or in the food banks and that's the alternative. We disagree completely, I think he's a breath of fresh air that would induce change, or at least shake shit up and it needs to happen. 20k is a huge amount of money. It's more than a lot of people can earn. The median wage is only 22k, if you include part time workers, so the temptation to become a professional benefit farmer must already be huge. I personally know shocking amounts of bludging from people who are now unemployable, unemployable because of the limbo-life of bennies. It's actually inhumane to set up this honey trap of a system for people, IMHO, and shockingly naive to think that there's not a lot of gaming the system going on. He had bugger all to do with the Northern Ireland peace process. Absolutely zip. http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/07/the-idea-that-jeremy-corbyn-laid-the-foundations-for-peace-in-northern-ireland-is-total-fantasy/ Brexit is already going to shake shit up, we don't need Leninism as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Just now, EUBanana said: 20k is a huge amount of money. It's more than a lot of people can earn. The median wage is only 22k, if you include part time workers, so the temptation to become a professional benefit farmer must already be huge. I personally know shocking amounts of bludging from people who are now unemployable, unemployable because of the limbo-life of bennies. It's actually inhumane to set up this honey trap of a system for people, IMHO, and shockingly naive to think that there's not a lot of gaming the system going on. He had bugger all to do with the Northern Ireland peace process. Absolutely zip. http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/07/the-idea-that-jeremy-corbyn-laid-the-foundations-for-peace-in-northern-ireland-is-total-fantasy/ Brexit is already going to shake shit up, we don't need Leninism as well. Median wage is around £27k, I'm not including part time folk as you're doing it to skew the figures. £20k is around £380 a week in the hand. Factor in housing at around £150-200 a week, food at £100 and bills of around £50 and you can begin to see what I am saying. He did as he brought them to the table and this article from fanatical Grassroots (read Blair) is woefully off the point. He brought them into the dialogue, he engaged with them. to say he did nothing is woefully inaccurate and misleading. Sorry, but it is. I know people game the system, to be frank if I was offered a role at £25k pre tax and worked out I could earn £20k post tax without working, I'd not work, i'd study, grow vegetables, make use of the free time and less stress. However, I am educated and motivated to earn an awful lot more than that, so I don't. Don't call me naive, but for every one gaming it, there is someone who needs the safety blanket of benefits, so that's ok with me. I don't think we'll see a meaningful brexit, simply not going to happen. As for Leninism, that's hyperbole. I would like to see shit shook up and he's the only one likely to give that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley George Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 16 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: I don't really care, what he did help was start a peace process which ultimately led to the IRA stopping bombing and brought a start to lasting peace in NI, which is what we all wanted, no? Seeing that the benefit cap is £20k outside of London, including HB, I think he's right to scrap it and start taxing those who earn a lot, a lot more. Most of the folk on benefits need them and I am not one for putting people either on the streets or in the food banks and that's the alternative. We disagree completely, I think he's a breath of fresh air that would induce change, or at least shake shit up and it needs to happen. Be in no doubt if Corbyn ever got in, who'd actually be in charge of the country - http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/len-mccluskey-profile-labours-kingmaker "Although he joined Labour in 1970, McCluskey became a supporter of Militant, the Trotskyist entryist group that Neil Kinnock later expelled. “All the people who are mad, bad and dangerous to know are Len’s old pals,” a senior MP told me. McCluskey’s chief of staff is Andrew Murray, a member of the Communist Party of Britain, who has defended North Korea’s Stalinist regime (“Our party has already made its basic position of solidarity with People’s Korea clear,” he declared in 2003)." Do you think it's a coincidence re-nationalisation was such a big part of the labour manifesto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said: Median wage is around £27k, I'm not including part time folk as you're doing it to skew the figures. £20k is around £380 a week in the hand. Factor in housing at around £150-200 a week, food at £100 and bills of around £50 and you can begin to see what I am saying. He did as he brought them to the table and this article from fanatical Grassroots (read Blair) is woefully off the point. He brought them into the dialogue, he engaged with them. to say he did nothing is woefully inaccurate and misleading. Sorry, but it is. I know people game the system, to be frank if I was offered a role at £25k pre tax and worked out I could earn £20k post tax without working, I'd not work, i'd study, grow vegetables, make use of the free time and less stress. However, I am educated and motivated to earn an awful lot more than that, so I don't. Don't call me naive, but for every one gaming it, there is someone who needs the safety blanket of benefits, so that's ok with me. I don't think we'll see a meaningful brexit, simply not going to happen. As for Leninism, that's hyperbole. I would like to see shit shook up and he's the only one likely to give that. Who in 97 said Corbyn was responsible for bringing the IRA to the negotiating table? Did Gerry Adams say that? I remember the Good Friday talks etc but I never ever heard anyone say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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