thirdwave Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, spyguy said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39014191 Its the recourse to benefits public funds that complicate the process. You get a pass if its just you and you are working and paying tax. Its a problem if you have anon working spouse/kids - yuou need to have bought private healthcare. Outside ofhte EU, you'd have to demonstrate you have money to support yourself AND pass English language tests. Hmm.. can't see our Polish cleaner or Lithuanian handyman buying top up health insurance. Besides, recourse to public funds would not apply once settlement is granted. I am sure these issues will form part of the Brexit negotiations and ultimate settlement. In an ideal world, one would like to see all EU nationals and their families barred from in/out of work benefits and HB but I suspect it's not going to work out that way. Those here already will be allowed to stay and retain the same benefit entitlements as UK nationals. Edited June 10, 2017 by thirdwave typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, thirdwave said: Hmm.. can't see our Polish cleaner or Lithuanian handyman buying top up health insurance. Besides, recourse to public funds would not apply once settlement is granted. I am sure these issues will form part of the Brexit negotiations and ultimate settlement. In an ideal world, one would like to see all EU nationals and their families barred from in/out of work benefits and HB but I suspect it's not going to work out that way. Those here already will be allowed to stay and retain the same benefit entitlements as UK nationals. Id disagree with that. The UK is in bad financial shape. Any money saving will grabbed esp. when it involves giving cash to people who dont vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Peter Hun said: Poland does not use the Euro and the pound hasn't gone from 2 to 1 euro. In fact, the pound is lower but by no means the lowest its been over the past decade. http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=PLN&view=10Y The Poles I know only track the £/E rate. They seem to spend most of their money in Germany. A couple I know have Euro mortgages. Edited June 10, 2017 by spyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 51 minutes ago, spyguy said: The Poles I know only track the £/E rate. They seem to spend most of their money in Germany. A couple I know have Euro mortgages. You know some extremely unusual Poles. Throughout Europe nobody can get foreign currency loans anymore. If they have Euro loans they are unusual in Poland because the Swiss Franc was the overwhelming foreign currency to use. And 80% of loans were in Local currency Self evidently its not normal for Poles to spend there money in Germany where everything probably cost twice as much. Poles spend all their money in Germany... wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giraffe Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, iamnumerate said: We should change this, no benefits until you have paid £x net tax - otherwise we are paying for people to come here. I've often wondered why it is not like this. All you need is a rule where you are not entitled to benefits (all, including the NHS) until you or one of your parents have paid income tax for 5 years, with a few select exemptions. Migrants would then have to ensure they could support themselves for a long period, thus reducing their numbers and Brexit would not have occurred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirdwave Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Giraffe said: I've often wondered why it is not like this. All you need is a rule where you are not entitled to benefits (all, including the NHS) until you or one of your parents have paid income tax for 5 years, with a few select exemptions. Migrants would then have to ensure they could support themselves for a long period, thus reducing their numbers and Brexit would not have occurred. I am aware you are making a wider point, but discrimination on grounds of EU nationality when accessing benefits would be illegal under EU treaties. I think Labour had tried to introduce a residency test to this end but it was shot down by the courts.The surest way to stop all EU immigration would be to put an end to WTC for new arrivals or make all benefits conditional to contributions but then it would have to be introduced across the board, which no government is willing to do. Edited June 10, 2017 by thirdwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirdwave Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 The crucial point that most cheerleaders for unrestricted EU immigration deliberately overlook is that most new arrivals are in NMW jobs (or declare income well under the income tax threshold), take a lot out of the system through in work benefits and public services and, at the end of their working lives, would expect to be paid a full state pension and receive social care at the state's expense as the majority would have failed to acquire any assets exceeding the means testing threshold. By refusing to do anything about this problem now, the country is storing up a lot of trouble for the future, particularly at a time when the tax base is already shrinking due to a rapidly ageing native population. It's utter madness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patient London FTB Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 8 hours ago, DrBuyToLeech said: Not really, no. If this was true then rents wouldn't be tracking inflation. 14% increase in rents since 2011, according to ONS, about 11% general inflation. This is because rents are determined by income due to: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent In fact, it's likely that immigrants are actually keeping rents down, by keeping wages down. I'm not a supporter of mass migration, but that doen't change how the market works. Also according to ONS, London rents have increased by 22.9% since January 2011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Peter Hun said: You know some extremely unusual Poles. Throughout Europe nobody can get foreign currency loans anymore. If they have Euro loans they are unusual in Poland because the Swiss Franc was the overwhelming foreign currency to use. And 80% of loans were in Local currency Self evidently its not normal for Poles to spend there money in Germany where everything probably cost twice as much. Poles spend all their money in Germany... wtf? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39900362 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 7 hours ago, fru-gal said: How do you think May is going to implement anything that radical with a minority/coalition government when the other parties will vote out any extreme measures against EU migrants claiming benefits? Don't you understand that even if the Tories had got a majority they would not be reducing immigration. They have said that several times before the election. The Tories are not interested in making life easier for normal people, all that interests them is that they do the bidding of their backers which requires more and more low paid immigrants, topped up with benefits. It is the only way they can be assured big profits either for their companies or for their rentals. And the great thing is that other taxpayers will top up this misery pay so they get a double whammy. Tory donors don't want their easy profit model to be disrupted by immigration curbs. I think yhe pitch is easy. Theres -2m Brits in Europe but -6m Euers in the uk. Its not even close to balanced. How do you do it? Dent housing benefit. Na for non uk nationals. Ask for refund of genefits from eu coutry- uk supports uk bationals benfits, vice versa. Cons have to step up. They know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 23 minutes ago, spyguy said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39900362 Only a few percent of people live close enough to the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, spyguy said: I think yhe pitch is easy. Theres -2m Brits in Europe but -6m Euers in the uk. Its not even close to balanced. How do you do it? Dent housing benefit. Na for non uk nationals. Ask for refund of genefits from eu coutry- uk supports uk bationals benfits, vice versa. Cons have to step up. They know it. Not 6mln but 3mln EU nationals live in the UK.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 42 minutes ago, slawek said: Not 6mln but 3mln EU nationals live in the UK.. I think the official figureof of 3.5m is waay out. I think 5-6m is more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, spyguy said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39900362 What has the food shopping habits of Czech border dwellers have got to do with the earning of UK based EE's? Also, Poland has the second cheapest food in Europe, after Romanian and the vast majority of EE's in the UK are Polish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, spyguy said: I think the official figureof of 3.5m is waay out. I think 5-6m is more realistic. No, you like to invent a figure to suit your agenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 9 hours ago, Giraffe said: I've often wondered why it is not like this. All you need is a rule where you are not entitled to benefits (all, including the NHS) until you or one of your parents have paid income tax for 5 years, with a few select exemptions. Migrants would then have to ensure they could support themselves for a long period, thus reducing their numbers and Brexit would not have occurred. Because a) Labour want immigrants who don't pay much tax so they vote for them b') the tories are stupid as Teresa May reminded us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Peter Hun said: No, you like to invent a figure to suit your agenda That may be a fair point - but on this one the spy is probably spot on. Our country has literally been invaded by eastern Europeans. And for the record I don't blame the *******. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Peter Hun said: No, you like to invent a figure to suit your agenda The offical figures date from 2015 - 2 years is a very liong time ago in UK migration. Id guess even those figures undercounted as they depended on a NI number. Th EE migration carried on at a huge rate during 2015. Then, going by the numbers I bump into, they went up massively around the Brexit vote. Ill go out on a limb and say about 10% of the population of England is EE at the mo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 13 hours ago, iamnumerate said: We should change this, no benefits until you have paid £x net tax - otherwise we are paying for people to come here. I propose and even better system. Benefits paid out are proportionate to your contributions. Doesn't penalise hard working immigrants down on their luck against lazy worthless nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, spyguy said: The offical figures date from 2015 - 2 years is a very liong time ago in UK migration. Id guess even those figures undercounted as they depended on a NI number. Th EE migration carried on at a huge rate during 2015. Then, going by the numbers I bump into, they went up massively around the Brexit vote. Ill go out on a limb and say about 10% of the population of England is EE at the mo. As I said, you like to talk total; ******** to suit your agenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 8 hours ago, Peter Hun said: As I said, you like to talk total; ******** to suit your agenda I dont have an agenda, just an observation. The religious programme on R4has just been on (Sunday). Some chitchat about Ireland. Mary McLeish (sp?) stated that Ireland currently has 17% of its population not born in Ireland. Going by my experience of walking around towns and shopping, I think Im probably spot on with 10% of the English population being EE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 10 hours ago, ccc said: That may be a fair point - but on this one the spy is probably spot on. Our country has literally been invaded by eastern Europeans. And for the record I don't blame the *******. Do not worry about Europeans, many will go back to EU after the Brexit. But you should start thinking who will replace them. Quote Charities cash handed to criminal gangs so they ‘deliver’ refugees Refugee charities are paying people smugglers to ferry migrants to their rescue boats patrolling off Libya, it was claimed last night. Colonel Shanboor said aid agencies were now encouraging more and more migrants to make the perilous trip. He had evidence that aid agencies were stumping up cash for migrants desperate to reach Europe but who cannot afford to pay ruthless traffickers. Daily mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, rollover said: Do not worry about Europeans, many will go back to EU after the Brexit. But you should start thinking who will replace them. There are serious issues around refugee / illegal immigrants with or without the EU. Being in the EU makes it potentially easier for them to get here eventually though. So a win on both fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 On 10/06/2017 at 10:16 PM, adarmo said: I propose and even better system. Benefits paid out are proportionate to your contributions. Doesn't penalise hard working immigrants down on their luck against lazy worthless nationals. I think your idea has even less hope of happening than mine. Although I like your idea, however I would let parents contributions count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Quote EU and UK citizens should not fret over Brexit future, Davis says British Brexit minister David Davis said European citizens should not worry about their future rights as he hoped a deal would be reached swiftly after the start of Brexit talks on June 19. Davis said he would attend the detailed discussions on Britain's divorce from the European Union while Prime Minister Theresa May would do the "big negotiations" with other leaders. "You have people worrying here in Britain that they can't stay here, you have Brits living in Spain worrying they will not be able to stay there." "The worries are unnecessary and they shouldn't have them but we want make sure they are dealt with as soon as possible," he said. He said money and Northern Ireland would also be on the agenda at the start of Brexit talks. Reuters Is it a U-turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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