An Irish Wall or a Brexit Fudge?

[2buyornot2buy]

1 hour ago, willie said:

That would be Nelson MC who wanted to insist on creationism being displayed alongside the dinosaurs in the Ulster Museum.  Or Nelson Mc who wanted swings in children's play parks padlocked on a Sunday so that children would spend more time reading the bible?

Not wanted but actually did. The park swings were chained up in DUP council of Ballymena. The same council where the DUP mayor said the New Orleans disaster was God smiting them for supporting homosexuality.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/19/northernireland.hurricanes2005

[Thorn]

There's been more balance here in recent years than there ever was before. The Unionists have not had Unionist Majority Rule in NIreland for a long time and the other tribe will not be keen to see it return. The thing we need to focus on is what might happen next. 

[Qetesuesi]

7 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

I'm hoping the Conservatives can at least find a freedom loving leader with more of a liberal streak - actually this could be David Davis. Whilst I don't align with his views on Brexit, at least he would build a UK that I would want to live in. Yes, he is a Brexiter, but not a Brextard.

Ahem - you may have to revise your glowing opinion of Mr Davis:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4591382/How-David-Davis-talked-holding-snap-election.html

[Sawitcoming]

If I try to search for "Ballymena swings" to validate the story I get very confusing results... 

[maverick73]

9 hours ago, olde guto said:

Except that they are against a hard border with the Republic, Arlene Foster has also spoken out against a hard brexit. Funnily enough the only party that has expressed any interest in a hard border are some people in Sinn Fein who think it could help speed-up reunification.

 

As well as dealing with the DUP May and who ever might replace her might need to look out for the "bastards" just like Major did, except this time they'll be europhiles.

Once some get a sniff of power.. all bets are off ?

[Sour Mash]

23 hours ago, dugsbody said:

No, that is not what logic would dictate. The Irish have no appetite at all for leaving the EU to join their former oppressors. You have serious delusions about the UK.

If Ireland is going to be part of a shared economic area and shared currency, it is much more sensible for it to be in an arrangement with GB rather than the EU.  For all the happy-clappy 'European' pretensions of the Irish public, the fact is that it does far more business in the 'Anglosphere' than the EU and almost certainly will continue to do so.  Most emigration from Ireland goes towards GB, the USA/Canada and Aus/NZ - not EU countries.

 

Much of the enthusiasm for the EU comes from the good old days of the EU giving massive subsidies to Ireland back when it was practically a second-World country in the 70s and early 80s.  The money flows in the other direction now and the Irish public are on the hook for hundreds of billions of Euro courtesy of the forced public bailout of Irish banks which was aimed at making sure that major EU banks didn't lose their loans to the Irish banking system.  Plus of course there is a lot of historical antipathy towards the British, much of it with good cause.

 

Sadly however, the new generation of Irish public are just about the biggest virtue-signalling super-liberals going and are generally more clueless about matters of finance and the economy than the British public (which takes quite some doing).  I think they are set to get a nasty wakeup call when things get tough for the World economy.

[thecrashingisles]

1 minute ago, Sour Mash said:

Sadly however, the new generation of Irish public are just about the biggest virtue-signalling super-liberals going and are generally more clueless about matters of finance and the economy than the British public (which takes quite some doing).  I think they are set to get a nasty wakeup call when things get tough for the World economy.

Your rant ignores the fact that they have already had such a wake up call and then some after the 2008 financial crisis, and are as committed to the EU as ever.

It is your delusion that the UK could offer them an alternative to the EU that you need to snap out of.

[Sour Mash]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

Your rant ignores the fact that they have already had such a wake up call and then some after the 2008 financial crisis, and are as committed to the EU as ever.

It is your delusion that the UK could offer them an alternative to the EU that you need to snap out of.

Sorry, but the Dublin housing price bubble was inflating massively only a few years after the huge crash of 2007/8, even sooner than the London one.  The public never learn.

A far better deal than giving up a chunk of sovereign power and currency to the EU would be an independent Ireland with a solid common trade area with GB, maybe with a pegged currency (as the Republic of Ireland had prior to 1979 when the Irish 'punt' was pegged to Sterling).  Also, an end to partition with a six-country chunk in the Northwest being run as a welfare case for the British taxpayer would benefit both Ireland (in the longer run) and GB.

[Sour Mash]

On 09/06/2017 at 10:19 PM, Dave Beans said:

The DUP is in favour of Northern Ireland leaving the EU but says that Brexit does not mean "leaving Europe".  It adds that it will prioritise maintaining the CTA between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

Aims:

• frictionless border with the Irish Republic; assisting those working or travelling in the other jurisdiction
• Northern Ireland established as a hub for trade from the Irish Republic into the broader UK market
• comprehensive free trade and customs agreement with the EU
• arrangements to facilitate ease of movement of people, goods and services

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39976319

Smells like EEA to me..

If the Irish government were smart (which they're not, unfortunately) then they'd stand up and push for some sort of one-off single market arrangement between Ireland and the UK.  However, they've all got their eyes on juicy sinecures in Brussels and fat, EU-funded pensions so they'll do whatever Junker et al tell them to do and settle for some temporary subsidies and grants from EU to satisfy the public,  which almost certainly won't reach all the people affected and will be gone after a few years.

A 'hard border' with the UK would be utterly, utterly disastrous for the RoI.

 

[OnionTerror]

5 minutes ago, Sour Mash said:

If the Irish government were smart (which they're not, unfortunately) then they'd stand up and push for some sort of one-off single market arrangement between Ireland and the UK.  However, they've all got their eyes on juicy sinecures in Brussels and fat, EU-funded pensions so they'll do whatever Junker et al tell them to do and settle for some temporary subsidies and grants from EU to satisfy the public,  which almost certainly won't reach all the people affected and will be gone after a few years.

A 'hard border' with the UK would be utterly, utterly disastrous for the RoI.

 

If the UK is outside of the single market, and at some point in the future, signs an FTA, with say, the US, which allows chlorinated Chicken into the UK (can be sign of dirty Poultry), a lack of a hard border could well mean that this Chicken could leak into the single market (which is currently banned) via Ireland - that's why the EU say that there has to be hard border...

[Big Orange]

37 minutes ago, Sour Mash said:

 

Much of the enthusiasm for the EU comes from the good old days of the EU giving massive subsidies to Ireland back when it was practically a second-World country in the 70s and early 80s.  The money flows in the other direction now and the Irish public are on the hook for hundreds of billions of Euro courtesy of the forced public bailout of Irish banks which was aimed at making sure that major EU banks didn't lose their loans to the Irish banking system.  Plus of course there is a lot of historical antipathy towards the British, much of it with good cause.

Many of the grievances against the English and Scottish were justified but it's tainted by a lot of hypocrisy and hysterics, especially in recent decades, when the antipathy was partially fueled by European powers using Ireland as a "aircraft carrier" against England for centuries (and the RoI being much more warmly pro-EU is a more softer, less violent modern replay of that).

And besides which is the historical plight of the Irish and Welsh unfortunately so much worse or abnormal than the plight of the similar "simple hinterland folk" in the back yards of major empires such as the Italian Samnites and Sabines, Japan's Emishi and Ainu, Spain's Basques and Catalonians, the Ottoman Empire's Kurds, and the Russian/Soviet Empire's Ukrainians and Tartars?! Heck the train wreck of the under reported Yemen conflict has similar parallels.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Big Orange

[Sour Mash]

2 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

If the UK is outside of the single market, and at some point in the future, signs an FTA, with say, the US, which allows chlorinated Chicken into the UK (can be sign of dirty Poultry), a lack of a hard border could well mean that this Chicken could leak into the single market (which is currently banned) via Ireland - that's why the EU say that there has to be hard border...

Whatever the reasons the EU argue for a hard border, the fact is that it will be disastrous for the RoI.

But that won't stop Irish politicians rolling over instead of standing up for Irish interests.  They are driven by the lure of money/power (opportunities for lucrative big-money grift)  in much better post-local-politics jobs in the EU the same way that politicians in larger economies are driven by private sector corporate money on offer after they leave politics.

[Thorn]

Sour Mash is bang on. The current oppressors are the Troika, making the Irish government - of whatever hue prior to election- continue to enforce the European bankers casino debt on ordinary people. Virtue signalling central is correct too. It feels like "Let them vote for gay marriage- so long as they keep handing over their taxes for legacy debt of failed banks". Ireland is extremely adaptable though. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of a deal with the UK would prove preferable to most than sinking with a collapsing Eurozone. A factor to consider is that since the GFC the young and capable Irish have done what has always been necessary. Emigrate. By the planeload. 

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, Sour Mash said:

Sorry, but the Dublin housing price bubble was inflating massively only a few years after the huge crash of 2007/8, even sooner than the London one.  The public never learn.

A far better deal than giving up a chunk of sovereign power and currency to the EU would be an independent Ireland with a solid common trade area with GB, maybe with a pegged currency (as the Republic of Ireland had prior to 1979 when the Irish 'punt' was pegged to Sterling).  Also, an end to partition with a six-country chunk in the Northwest being run as a welfare case for the British taxpayer would benefit both Ireland (in the longer run) and GB.

An 'independent' Ireland that played by the UK's rules and had its currency pegged to the UK?  What a joke.

[Thorn]

2 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

An 'independent' Ireland that played by the UK's rules and had its currency pegged to the UK?  What a joke.

CrashingIsles please guide us. Do you not think the €80 billion European banker debt that the Irish taxpayers are on the hook for is a major daily current issue e.g. for the average taxi driver in Dublin whose taxes have to pay it off? Please explore it

[Toast]

15 hours ago, Qetesuesi said:

Dino bones don't tell their own story - humans look at them and make one up.

They're only "dino" bones because of the understanding generated by the scientific process; otherwise they would be "funny rocks that look like big bones"; and museums would just be curiosity cabinets, rather than treasure-troves of hard-won knowledge.

Science may well proceed in a haphazard manner, and be very tattered and tentative near its ragged leading edge, but the older, well-established parts are underpinned by multiple, inter-linking chains of evidence, that many people have poured their lives into establishing. To brush aside that beautiful and hard-fought-for knowledge for some spurious reason like "it sheds doubt on the inerrancy of our ancient text" is a shame and a travesty; and does nothing in my eyes but discredit the followers of that ancient text.

If people don't like the scientific consensus, that's fine by me: if they want to challenge it, good on them (I'm a maverick myself, scientifically, and almost always wrong when I start criticising well-respected theories). However, I think that criticism has to be honest: to engage on the basis of evidence, and to be motivated by a desire to understand the world better. It should not be about a political struggle to control other people's lives. The honesty of the intention has to be extra-squeaky-clean when the debate impinges on education, where (unfortunately) people spend more time learning scientific facts rather than how we know them. Therefore where that debate is seen, it is extremely important for the scientific process of argument and consensus-building to be on display; not some religio-political theatre.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Toast
Break up extra-long sentences.

[dugsbody]

9 hours ago, Sour Mash said:

If Ireland is going to be part of a shared economic area and shared currency, it is much more sensible for it to be in an arrangement with GB rather than the EU.  For all the happy-clappy 'European' pretensions of the Irish public, the fact is that it does far more business in the 'Anglosphere' than the EU and almost certainly will continue to do so.  Most emigration from Ireland goes towards GB, the USA/Canada and Aus/NZ - not EU countries.

 

Much of the enthusiasm for the EU comes from the good old days of the EU giving massive subsidies to Ireland back when it was practically a second-World country in the 70s and early 80s.  The money flows in the other direction now and the Irish public are on the hook for hundreds of billions of Euro courtesy of the forced public bailout of Irish banks which was aimed at making sure that major EU banks didn't lose their loans to the Irish banking system.  Plus of course there is a lot of historical antipathy towards the British, much of it with good cause.

 

Sadly however, the new generation of Irish public are just about the biggest virtue-signalling super-liberals going and are generally more clueless about matters of finance and the economy than the British public (which takes quite some doing).  I think they are set to get a nasty wakeup call when things get tough for the World economy.

Must make you angry, all these Irish, making such wrong choices and being such happy clappy liberals. Perhaps you need a safe space.

[dugsbody]

5 hours ago, Thorn said:

CrashingIsles please guide us. Do you not think the €80 billion European banker debt that the Irish taxpayers are on the hook for is a major daily current issue e.g. for the average taxi driver in Dublin whose taxes have to pay it off? Please explore it

Please tell us, do you think the same about the British taxpayer, on the hook for the British bank debt? You must be able to tie that to the EU somehow if you try really hard.

But your system where debt is optional sounds interesting. I think I should take out a huge mortgage and then look forward to you guys advocating that I don't have to repay it because it was the bank that lent irresponsibly with casino debt. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by dugsbody

[dugsbody]

8 hours ago, Thorn said:

preferable to most than sinking with a collapsing Eurozone. 

You guys have been saying this for 20 years. When can we expect it?

[dugsbody]

9 hours ago, Big Orange said:

when the antipathy was partially fueled by European powers using Ireland as a "aircraft carrier" against England for centuries (and the RoI being much more warmly pro-EU is a more softer, less violent modern replay of that).

You guys are actually, truly, deluded when it comes to the EU. 

[Thorn]

28 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Please tell us, do you think the same about the British taxpayer, on the hook for the British bank debt? You must be able to tie that to the EU somehow if you try really hard.

But your system where debt is optional sounds interesting. I think I should take out a huge mortgage and then look forward to you guys advocating that I don't have to repay it because it was the bank that lent irresponsibly with casino debt. 

Surely one valid way to see it is to say that after the GFC a lot of banks viewed repaying their debts as optional and managed to get taxpayers to pay them.

[dugsbody]

27 minutes ago, Thorn said:

Surely one valid way to see it is to say that after the GFC a lot of banks viewed repaying their debts as optional and managed to get taxpayers to pay them.

So, which is it. Banks should repay their debts or not?

[Thorn]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or that there's a should- just trying to look at the angles to figure out what has happened so far, to see how people will behave from here on. 

[John51]

Is it legally possible for Westminster to simply cut Northern Ireland loose? You're an independent country now NI, deal with it, you're no longer our problem.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

Now this is an interesting read. The referendum, DUP, Scottish Conservatives, Saudi Intelligence and Vladimir Putin all in the same article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-dup-brexit-donations-saudi-arabia-tale-tories-theresa-may-a7782681.html

 

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Mikhail Liebenstein