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reddog

Carjacking

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In the Birmingham Evening Mail there seems be a reported carjacking on an almost daily basis now (maybe slight exaggeration but a lot more than once weekly)

 

Is this a new crime trend?  Obviously it used to happen before, but a lot less frequently, some of these cases sound very violent or potentially violent if you don't give up the car.

 

Is this just a reaction to better car security?

Or is society taking just getting ever more violent, and this is just part of it?

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We're in a very interesting time for crime in general.  

Over the last 20 years or so they've arranged welfare etc such that old-fashioned crime just isn't worth it.  There is enough to be gained at more-or-less zero risk by gaming the benefits system.  At the same time, we've imported large numbers of people who really know how to do crime properly.

So far, the benefits system has won-out; the people predisposed to an illegal mechanism of gaining wealth are satisfied with their lot.  But any changes to welfare could bring about a massive crime-wave, that the police would be ill-prepared to manage.

Are the carjackings the early signs of this?  

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21 minutes ago, reddog said:

In the Birmingham Evening Mail there seems be a reported carjacking on an almost daily basis now (maybe slight exaggeration but a lot more than once weekly)

 

Is this a new crime trend?  Obviously it used to happen before, but a lot less frequently, some of these cases sound very violent or potentially violent if you don't give up the car.

 

Is this just a reaction to better car security?

Or is society taking just getting ever more violent, and this is just part of it?

Birmingham politicians and civic planners have spent the past half century trying to turn the city into an imitation Chicago. Given that it's now the gun and knife crime capital of the UK they've evidently succeeded in ways they couldn't have imagined.

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This was the article that inspired my post:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/teenage--12993989

in this case the they seemed to be in it for 'fun', where as in other case the carjackers are a lot more tactical, only interested in the highest ended range rovers etc.

 

I definitely agree that a portion of the population has been pacified over the last 20 or so years by much higher than historically normal benefits.  Which has masked a lot of social problems. 

 

If/when that ends, I reckon a good 20% of the young population could go full on Clockwork Orange (especially in my home town of Birmingham).

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If someone came at you when you were outside or just got into it - sensible option is to hand it over and not try anything bravado.

However If i was in it and engine running ? I'd go for them. 100%. Wouldn't even have to think about it for a millisecond. If one of them died ? Meh. Wouldn't bother me. 

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Just now, ccc said:

If someone came at you when you were outside or just got into it - sensible option is to hand it over and not try anything bravado.

However If i was in it and engine running ? I'd go for them. 100%. Wouldn't even have to think about it for a millisecond. If one of them died ? Meh. Wouldn't bother me. 

You would go to jail for manslaughter or murder though, even if they were trying to steal your car. That's our justice system.

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50 minutes ago, developer said:

You would go to jail for manslaughter or murder though, even if they were trying to steal your car. That's our justice system.

Or GBH if they live

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23 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said:

Or GBH if they live

That's what reverse gear is for.

 

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7 hours ago, developer said:

You would go to jail for manslaughter or murder though, even if they were trying to steal your car. That's our justice system.

In a decent justice system no. You'd get a medal.

If someone comes at you with a bona fide attack minded deadly weapon - and you defend yourself with something that is not a bona fide attack minded weapon - but can be turned into one if necessary ? I really don't see how any reasonable justice system would even get that to court.

If you just ducked - floored it - heard a thud then kept on going ? If someone did that to my own friends or family members in these circumstances i would agree with them and argue their case. 

Of course as you say our courts have come up with some ******ed up results though.

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On 06/05/2017 at 5:43 AM, ccc said:

In a decent justice system no. You'd get a medal.

If someone comes at you with a bona fide attack minded deadly weapon - and you defend yourself with something that is not a bona fide attack minded weapon - but can be turned into one if necessary ? I really don't see how any reasonable justice system would even get that to court.

If you just ducked - floored it - heard a thud then kept on going ? If someone did that to my own friends or family members in these circumstances i would agree with them and argue their case. 

Of course as you say our courts have come up with some ******ed up results though.

AFAICT if you're reasonable (whatever that means) defending yourself you should be OK, I remember a case several years ago where the police almost came out and said "thanks for getting rid of that scum." If the courts think you were trying to actively kill someone, no. An example of that would be chasing them and attacking if they run.

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1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

AFAICT if you're reasonable (whatever that means) defending yourself you should be OK, I remember a case several years ago where the police almost came out and said "thanks for getting rid of that scum." If the courts think you were trying to actively kill someone, no. An example of that would be chasing them and attacking if they run.

No.

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2 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Yes.

The courts are not there to do justice, or to look after you.  If you are a nice, middle/working class tax drone, you WILL be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law irrespective of the rights and wrongs of what you did.  Targets and 'pour encourager les autres'.

If you have never watched it, watch this:

 

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1 hour ago, wherebee said:

The courts are not there to do justice, or to look after you.  If you are a nice, middle/working class tax drone, you WILL be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law irrespective of the rights and wrongs of what you did.  Targets and 'pour encourager les autres'.

And the full extent of the law has some leeway built into it. Not every encounter that has left a burglar dead has resulted in the other party in prison. Am I trying to claim it works perfectly justly and fairly? No. Is it entirely against you? No.

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Don't think they took off, maybe as a result of being legally dubious but those flame thrower adaptions to the side of the car were pretty Savage.  They certainly used to be advertised ( and I'd assume sold) in late nineties south Africa, as good defence for your shiny BMW.

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On ‎08‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 6:01 PM, Dogtanian said:

Don't think they took off, maybe as a result of being legally dubious but those flame thrower adaptions to the side of the car were pretty Savage.  They certainly used to be advertised ( and I'd assume sold) in late nineties south Africa, as good defence for your shiny BMW.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/17/us/louisiana-law-allows-force-on-carjackers.html

 "but because of the popularity of guns in Louisiana, the measure became known as the ''shoot the carjacker'' law."

"The state already has a law that allows residents to use deadly force if someone tries to break into their houses. It is called the ''shoot the burglar'' law."

 

:lol:  Looks like the bankers did get off lightly?

 

 

 

 

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On 2017-5-5 at 9:58 PM, ccc said:

If someone came at you when you were outside or just got into it - sensible option is to hand it over and not try anything bravado.

However If i was in it and engine running ? I'd go for them. 100%. Wouldn't even have to think about it for a millisecond. If one of them died ? Meh. Wouldn't bother me. 

Completely agree. I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Someone is coming at you with violent intent - you are boxed in (can't reverse), you are in real fear they were going to smash your window / harm you. Just floor it. They get in the way? tough sh1t.

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9 hours ago, Rave said:

Another good reason to drive a crappy old car.

Those are the ones that really stand out these days. I suspect it won't be long before the car-jackers target them, looking for paranoid millionaires carrying rolls of banknotes ('cause DPS and not wanting transactions recorded).

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On 2017-5-5 at 10:04 PM, developer said:

You would go to jail for manslaughter or murder though, even if they were trying to steal your car. That's our justice system.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/

Quote

Burden of Proof

The burden of proof remains with the prosecution when the issue of self-defence is raised.

The prosecution must adduce sufficient evidence to satisfy a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was either:

  • not acting to defend himself/herself or another; or
  • not acting to defend property; ornot acting to prevent a crime or to apprehend an offender; or
  • if he was so acting, the force used was excessive.

You would probably be in the clear so long as there was some evidence that they were committing or intended to commit a crime. Dashcam would probably be very useful.

So yeah if I had car jackers coming at me I'd definitely be prepared to aggressively drive to safety, I wouldnt deliberately go for them but if they got hit in the process I'd be confident of being in the clear.

 

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