40% have less than 100 in savings

[WinstonSmith]

11 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

 

You say that, but I work on the basis that I can easily get credit if I needed it, and that it is better to leave money in my pension or ISAs than in liquid readies with no interest.  My house costs about £7k per month to run, so I'm b'uggered if  I'm leaving £21k in a current account earning zero interest.

7k a month?

 

Where do you live? Buck palace?

 

On a serious note, what's the breakdown of that 7k?

[PSP]

12 hours ago, One-percent said:

I feel it is incredibly complex.  There will be a lot of people who are genuinely poor and so cannot save. The bigger issue though is how we view money and debt. The last car I bought was six or seven years ago and the dealer could not understand why I wanted to pay cash.  I could not understand why he kept waffling on about monthly payments. Tptb have managed to convince a lot of people that they can live month to month and have lots of shiny toys as long as they can meet the monthly payments.

i was brought up with the saying 'if you can't pay one week one week, you can't pay two the next.  Credit and debt were really frowned on.  I'm pleased that not only have I been unable to shake this view but that I have also,instilled it in my children.

Like you, I would not sleep well if I did not have the means to support myself for a while if it all went Pete tong

That just about sums up society!

 

office I visit ,you are judged on your -

 

new car , new iPhone ,new iPad ,sky package,annual holiday, £500-2000 at Christmas ! All on monthly or credit cards!

The atmosphere is An air of angst and stess and arrogance of I am pretending to be doing well ! 

 

Jobs foooked ! 

 

I dont care care about the latest iPhone product , and all the rest of the shite ! 

Old jap car runs forever , Christmas is a good meal but far more important is the good interesting company , material things mean  fooook  all listening to people and genuine relationship is where it at! ! 

 

Debt to impress and stress !! I don't think so !

[Saving For a Space Ship]

10 hours ago, Bear Hug said:

I would never take Daily Mail articles at face value. I'll let the editorial efforts speak for themselves: "A House of Lords committee revealed that 40 per cent of the working-age population held than £100 in savings."

Yes, it's just a missing word, just a typo but there appears to be one in every other "article".

I tried investigating further.  While Daily Mail article appears to quote correct numbers, I am slightly skeptical about the survey results themselves.

The source of the information appears to be here:

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/corporate/press-release-low-savings-levels-put-millions-at-financial-risk

This BBC article looked particularly interesting to me due to its dodgier-than-Daily-Mail paragraph: "The research was carried out for MAS by the consumer data company CACI which has a database of 48m UK adults".  BBC: Millions have less than £100 in savings, study finds

I read the BBC article and thought that sounds like a massive sample.  Do they have me in that database? Did I participate in that survey as well?!  However, digging further suggests that the sample size of working age people was only 2789 (page 48 of document below)!

https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/fincap-two%2Fd08746d1-e667-4c9e-84ad-8539ce5c62e0_mas_fincap_uk_survey_2015_aw.pdf 

To summarise:

- I cannot find the exact source of 40% under £100 statistic it's probably consistent the quite small sample size investigation carried out

- One of infographics sadly appears to suggest that renters have the least in savings

- It's not clear whether these savings are net of loans, student loans, mortgages, credit cards

I could be barking up a number of wrong trees here but I just don't trust the Daily Mail after its series of "Fiendishly difficult" puzzles where the sleeping sheep is the first thing I see!

 

 

Interesting, cheers for looking into the details.

 

On a related note,  Max Kaiser, Stacey & JP Sottile, talked about similar media manipulation issues the other week .

Using the phrase, "Processed News" 

https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/381999-episode-max-keiser-1048/

Quote

In this episode of the Keiser Report Max and Stacy discuss the racket that is war. In the second half Max talks to JP Sottile of NewsVandal.com about trumping Trump and howling at the Moonves: how corporate media raked in the big bucks pushing a reality TV star as president.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Saving For a Space Ship

[PSP]

It is not just poor people !

 

I read how 

Blair and Brown en debted the NHS with private equity finance ! 

Huge chunks of the NHS budget go now on interest payments on these old loans !

[One-percent]

3 minutes ago, PSP said:

That just about sums up society!

 

office I visit ,you are judged on your -

 

new car , new iPhone ,new iPad ,sky package,annual holiday, £500-2000 at Christmas ! All on monthly or credit cards!

The atmosphere is An air of angst and stess and arrogance of I am pretending to be doing well ! 

 

Jobs foooked ! 

 

I dont care care about the latest iPhone product , and all the rest of the shite ! 

Old jap car runs forever , Christmas is a good meal but far more important is the good interesting company , material things mean  fooook  all listening to people and genuine relationship is where it at! ! 

 

Debt to impress and stress !! I don't think so !

Let em judge.  I in return I will judge people on their stupidity and whether they live within their means.  People need to be prepared for if things change.  I live through black Wednesday and having recently taken out a mortgage, watch interest rates go through the roof.  Iirc, it went to annoy 15 percent. We could cover it but still uncomfortable times.  It could go that way again and as quickly then a lot of people will be relying on the state.   

My daughter's phone has had it.  Four years old and been dropped countless times.  So yesterday we went shopping for a new one.  Instead of going for the latest and greatest, she was in the apple shop looking for the cheapest.  Had a chat with the store person about the cheapest way to do things.  She then decided to return home, do her homework on it and go back the following week to sort it.

i was proud! 

[PSP]

1 minute ago, One-percent said:

Let em judge.  I in return I will judge people on their stupidity and whether they live within their means.  People need to be prepared for if things change.  I live through black Wednesday and having recently taken out a mortgage, watch interest rates go through the roof.  Iirc, it went to annoy 15 percent. We could cover it but still uncomfortable times.  It could go that way again and as quickly then a lot of people will be relying on the state.   

My daughter's phone has had it.  Four years old and been dropped countless times.  So yesterday we went shopping for a new one.  Instead of going for the latest and greatest, she was in the apple shop looking for the cheapest.  Had a chat with the store person about the cheapest way to do things.  She then decided to return home, do her homework on it and go back the following week to sort it.

i was proud! 

?

[One-percent]

1 minute ago, PSP said:

?

Reading that back, crapple predictive text is having a bad day today.  I think it is understandable though 

[Venger]

19 minutes ago, PSP said:

That just about sums up society!

office I visit ,you are judged on your -

new car , new iPhone ,new iPad ,sky package,annual holiday, £500-2000 at Christmas ! All on monthly or credit cards!

The atmosphere is An air of angst and stess and arrogance of I am pretending to be doing well ! 

Jobs foooked ! 

I dont care care about the latest iPhone product , and all the rest of the shite ! 

Old jap car runs forever , Christmas is a good meal but far more important is the good interesting company , material things mean  fooook  all listening to people and genuine relationship is where it at! ! 

Debt to impress and stress !! I don't think so !

 

Are you just projecting?   Is there some sort of interrogation?  

Perhaps the judgmental sneering side against those who have the gadgets as being 'mindless conformists not genuinely enjoying life' are the ones who have the big issues.

Having nice stuff is good for many people, myself included.  You only live once and you don't know how all people balance their finances.   Maybe they are not pretending to be doing well.... many offices have level of angst and stress there is work to be done.  How often do you visit and how well do you know these people?

The other day I had 2 Apple Tablets on my desk, 2 iphones (4s and a 6s), uploading pics for wider family.   At least two of those were bought by employers.  I once bought someone a 4s, who went onto get iphone with their job, and I didn't get around to selling it at a time it might have got some decent money for.   Sometimes use it to run the Presence App, as a security cam / monitor.

[Bear Hug]

18 minutes ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

 

 

Interesting, cheers for looking into the details.

 

On a related note,  Max Kaiser, Stacey & JP Sottile, talked about similar media manipulation issues the other week .

Using the phrase, "Processed News" 

https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/381999-episode-max-keiser-1048/

 

That's quite funny. Whole RT is on Putin's payroll.  

It is pretty sad state of affairs that to find out about our own propaganda, we have to watch some other propaganda.  Somewhere between them there is the truth but one has to process lots of lies and contradictions to try to work it out.  

Saying that, I do like Kaiser Report but  this is definitely the case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[PSP]

1 minute ago, Venger said:

 

Are you just projecting?   Is there some sort of interrogation?  

Perhaps the judgmental sneering side against those who have the gadgets as being 'mindless conformists not genuinely enjoying life' are the ones who have the big issues.

Having nice stuff is good for many people, myself included.  You only live once and you don't know how all people balance their finances.   Maybe they are not pretending to be doing well.... many offices have level of angst and stress there is work to be done.  How often do you visit and how well do you know these people?

The other day I had 2 Apple Tablets on my desk, 2 iphones (4s and a 6s), uploading pics for wider family.   At least two of those were bought by employers.  I once bought someone a 4s, who went onto get iphone with their job, and I didn't get around to selling it at a time it might have got some decent money for.   Sometimes use it to run the Presence App, as a security cam / monitor.

 Interesting question ! 

I would say it is the stress and angst I see in people as they approach pay day ! 

I am old, I also lived through black Wednesday ! I remember well the desperation of people as we went to 15 % interest rates! 

I am anti  high debt full stop ! 

I live by the motto if you can't buy two don't buy one ! 

I am not sneering at people and hope it doesn't  come across as that ! 

I feel sad that young twenty year olds have to feel they have to conform to a certain ilk of having it all ! 

If having it all means big monthly debt and no discretionary disposable income at the end of the month as all their wage is gone on finance contracts ! 

I am not judging in any way ! 

Things go in cycles this ''tis the biggest credit lending boom ever ! The big yin !

i am concerned  how bad the big yang will be ! 

Like you said life is for living to the full, I am just from a generation where living life debted up to the max brings stress rather than pleasure!

i guess society has moved on ! I have been left behind ! I am happy to be where I am ! 

Finally the only thing really I judge is the person are they good or bad people to know ! 

I never judge people for or on what they have or don't have ! 

 

[Venger]

Young twenty year olds conform to having it all?  

Those iPhones/smartphones (I don't use one myself, but can work my way around them if I need to... i have a 4s I use as a monitor sometimes) are full of functions and apps to personalise and help ease life with.  

I see younger people working them so quickly. 

It's a minor expense for what they offer many people, and many younger people very much priced out of homeownership, unlike previous generations...

Also I should point out that many boomers have full package of iPhones and Tablets. 

Quote

The back page of the front section on Saturday, February 16, 1991 was four-fifths covered with a Radio Shack ad.

You’d have spent $3,054.82 in 1991 to buy all the stuff in this ad that you can now do with your phone. That amount is roughly equivalent to about $5,100 in 2012 dollars.

15% rates?   Big deal on low-debt.   And most of it way way way below £100,000 mortgages.  Also those most maxed out 'desperation' took their own market positions, outbidding others.   Many a HPI seeking rubbing-hands spreadsheet buyer looking for more HPI from the 'asset' who outbid other people in the market.

Quote

FT: Affordability Backwards.  .....the initial interest payment on a £100,000 repayment loan at a 15 per cent interest rate is the same as that for a £300,000 loan at 2 per cent.

Bear Hug:  Becomes more interesting when capital repayments are considered. £15k wipes out 15% of £100,000 loan and only 2% of £300,000.  Or very roughly, doubling payments compared to interest-only will clear your debt in 6 years at 15% or 50 years at 2%!

I am debt averse too (personally), but not all debt is bad debt, and I will take a mortgage if house prices others have bid up (perhaps with big debt), fall back.  

However I am fully pro-choice and responsibility.  

If someone wants an iphone or newish reliable car to get to work, to earn their keep and pay the rent... their choice.  Not all bought by debt on renter side.

There are also £Trillions in wealth out there.

I don't know the debt positions of the masses, but it is their debt.  I know one mid 30s BTL landlord and am told they have £30K on credit cards.  Their debt.  Certainly enjoyed many holidays and bling purchases over last few years.  Pleased me to learn they may really have so debt much on credit-cards.  They got something out of the debt they chose to take on.  It's not hugs and cuddles and the victims of debt for everyone, especially not BTLers up to their necks with it.

I do know many renter-savers with iphones and nice modern reliable cars, also knowing they have saved up reasonable deposits, to buy if house prices fall back.  People are all different.   Some with debt may have to sell things, including houses for lower prices, in a market turn, which will allow others with no debt some opportunity for better value.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Venger

[Venger]

34 minutes ago, PSP said:

Things go in cycles this ''tis the biggest credit lending boom ever ! The big yin !

i am concerned  how bad the big yang will be ! 

Like you said life is for living to the full, I am just from a generation where living life debted up to the max brings stress rather than pleasure!

Well maybe the iphone generation will benefit from the big yang.

I am not here to worship or worry those who have priced me out of housing with big debt, if Yang comes in.

Many on the renter-saver side carrying it to extremes right now in the Yin.

Quote

Sun Wùkong: What is Yin? And what is Yang? Tai Shang Lao Jun, you are the ancestor of the Yin and Yang and 
the 8-ways trigram, how can you be confused? You forgot about the saying of 'When things reach an extreme, 
they can only move in the opposite direction' ?

 

[Bear Hug]

2 minutes ago, Venger said:

Young twenty year olds conform to having it all?  

Those iPhones/smartphones (I don't have one myself, but can work my way around them if I need to) are full of functions and apps to personalise and help ease life with.  

I see younger people working them so quickly. 

It's a minor expense for what they offer many people, and many younger people very much priced out of homeownership, unlike previous generations...

...

If someone wants an iphone or newish reliable car to get to work, to earn their keep and pay the rent... their choice.  Not all bought by debt on renter side.

...

Technology is great value for money thanks to Moore's law.  A new phone does some amazing things, particularly compared to what was available just a few years ago.  It can replace:  games console, entire library, VCR+entire Blockbuster store and takes (arguably) better photos than big film cameras did.

And it's similar with travel (can get to Europe and back for almost free sometimes) and cars (for £300 per month you could drive a car faster than Ferrari was 20 years ago)

[SillyBilly]

Pay day has almost no significance to me other than the day money actually happens to hit the account. I could probably manage with "pay year" such is the reserves I keep/investments I could liquidate. And I am not rich by any stretch, just always been reasonably disciplined. I find it amazing people have so little savings. One of the best things about keeping money back is the complete lack of stress when things go wrong (as they do). Last year my engine gave up the ghost on the A33, the £800 repair was paid on debit card back at the dealer without even a flicker of hesistation. It just needed paying as I needed to be back on the road ASAP for work. I can see how people get into a mess if they dont allow for these things.

Edited March 26, 2017 by SillyBilly

[PSP]

22 minutes ago, Venger said:

Well maybe the iphone generation will benefit from the big yang.

I am not here to worship or worry those who have priced me out of housing with big debt, if Yang comes in.

Many on the renter-saver side carrying it to extremes right now in the Yin.

 

Hi Venger,

 

we we have been here before ! There is no pricing out with big debt in the north ! 

in fact a lot of places in the north are well below their 2007 peak !  The north has had its correction ! 

My only worry about the north is an influx of southern money driving prices up over the next few years !

 

 

The problem it seems with you is ywant all the nice things,you want today's technology, today's fast cars, today's pace of life, today's low priced finance economy ! Then today's housing stock at yesterday's prices ! 

Wake up son ! Stop dreaming buy the  house of your dreams stop wasting your money  on nice things and crack on !

[PSP]

The big yang will come to the south at some point ! 

It already has in the north ! 

 

The problem will will be when it does hit the south lending and funding to the individual will dry up ! 

Many of renters who sit on the sideline now won't get a look in, if they haven't saved huge percentage deposits .

As the thread says there are millions  of people  without 100 in the bank ! 

 

Jobs fooked we may go back to 90 percent rental property like the 1900s, where owning property will seem like madness for anybody other than outright cash buying corporations !

That is the yang scenario that worries me .

not a blip buying opportunity for for more house price ramping ! 

 

 

[Venger]

3 minutes ago, PSP said:

Hi Venger,

we we have been here before ! There is no pricing out with big debt in the north ! 

in fact a lot of places in the north are well below their 2007 peak !  The north has had its correction ! 

My only worry about the north is an influx of southern money driving prices up over the next few years !

The problem it seems with you is ywant all the nice things,you want today's technology, today's fast cars, today's pace of life, today's low priced finance economy ! Then today's housing stock at yesterday's prices ! 

Wake up son ! Stop dreaming buy the  house of your dreams stop wasting your money  on nice things and crack on !

 

I am not willing to do totally without, and many older owners sat on fortunes of HPI treat themselves big time as well..... holidays, iphones, tvs, new kitchens.

An iphone and other treats are part of living, and against wider house prices, are not really a factor.   Maybe give up some of the mad-gainz, instead of expecting younger people to go with nothing in order to pay mad-prices?

What did you go without when buying?  So many older owners claim they had to save for a full year for their deposit and did with old furniture for a while...

In some places below 2007 peak.

£225,000 houses Blackburn way.... with our minds we make the world, and I don't see the great value you see with £200K+ houses around that way.

What's that... an hour in the car to Manchester / hour on the train (Manchester Victoria)?

If your own circumstances, as an older owner, are comfy around there, with those price, then good on you.   I guess a lot of Southerners to buy in Blackburn would support prices, and lock in the bubble HPI?

I was only a young kid when we left Blackburn for South Manchester, but parents took us on many an evening car trip over the dark moors from Manchester back to their house in Blackburn.   No idea why they went that way.  One time a runaway horse, really pelting it from around a corner (I thought it was in the field) narrowly missed colliding into us.  

On 3/21/2017 at 5:49 PM, PSP said:

You seem to want to live in the soon to be capital of England ( Madchester)  Yet stil pay (London is the worlds capital for dodgy money ! ) Smart money is unfortunately moving to Manchester ! 

Try rightmove  (Mill Hill Blackburn ) 

225 k buys you a lot of property, 5 min walk to railway station, 5 min drive to motorway network, there is even a canal to sail up and down on at weekends, loads of good cycle tracks 5mins away ;search Roddlesworth walks /rides on YouTube !( ( to a soon to be back in the premiership football club) okay maybe a little wishful thinking) then there are loads of recenently council block granted fully refurbished/ insulated tidy terrace houses from as little as 50 k for when the kids want to move out ? 

Life as it it should be ! Mortgage not taking all your money disposable income to enjoy life !

See prices in South Manchester.   Loads of areas in the North that are 2007 + 30%.  

Quote

 

Luckyone:  My expectation is that this market segment will behave in the same fashion as any other market which has topped out. Supply will increase, volume will decrease for quite a while before prices begin to crumble.

Many of us think that the entire market pricing structure is driven by the high priced segment, as all other properties are priced based on compromises versus the ideal (location, size, commuting etc). When the top end crumbles, everything else will follow.

 

The problem with a HPC in South is that lending will dry up.... making it even harder for renter savers?   Then prices will have to fall even further!

There is your happy view of the corporations buying up all the houses, and I admit there is some risk, having seen it play out in the USA.   A renter-saver future until death... with so many people not having much by way of pension, and others, mostly on older side, holding homeownership riches.... for an inheritor economy.  

Got to hope you are wrong about that.  At least banks and wider society better served by widespread homeownership.

[billybong]

12 hours ago, Bear Hug said:

I would never take Daily Mail articles at face value. I'll let the editorial efforts speak for themselves: "A House of Lords committee revealed that 40 per cent of the working-age population held than £100 in savings."

Yes, it's just a missing word, just a typo but there appears to be one in every other "article".

I tried investigating further.  While Daily Mail article appears to quote correct numbers, I am slightly skeptical about the survey results themselves.

The source of the information appears to be here:

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/corporate/press-release-low-savings-levels-put-millions-at-financial-risk

This BBC article looked particularly interesting to me due to its dodgier-than-Daily-Mail paragraph: "The research was carried out for MAS by the consumer data company CACI which has a database of 48m UK adults".  BBC: Millions have less than £100 in savings, study finds

I read the BBC article and thought that sounds like a massive sample.  Do they have me in that database? Did I participate in that survey as well?!  However, digging further suggests that the sample size of working age people was only 2789 (page 48 of document below)!

https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/fincap-two%2Fd08746d1-e667-4c9e-84ad-8539ce5c62e0_mas_fincap_uk_survey_2015_aw.pdf 

To summarise:

- I cannot find the exact source of 40% under £100 statistic it's probably consistent the quite small sample size investigation carried out

- One of infographics sadly appears to suggest that renters have the least in savings

- It's not clear whether these savings are net of loans, student loans, mortgages, credit cards

I could be barking up a number of wrong trees here but I just don't trust the Daily Mail after its series of "Fiendishly difficult" puzzles where the sleeping sheep is the first thing I see!

 

I'm also not convinced about it.

40% of the working age population is getting on for 16 million people. 

Over many years and even decades they (not only the Lords or the Mail) have regularly come up with the astonishing lack of savings headline be it plain savings or pension savings etc.  For their own reasons.

There never seems to be any significant cumulative consequences to this astonishing lack of savings - the economy just keeps (apparently) booming along and everybody gets over unexpected costly events just like that.  Never any mass bankruptcies or anything - none that are ever reported. 

Maybe one day they'll come up with the story about how such widespread lack of savings never seems to have any serious effect on people's lives or on the economy (of course there are stories of a few individuals now and again) - and not just the implied solution that they just take on more debt often from the sharks or go down to the benefits office.  16 million people.  

Maybe they're just using averages from the ONS stats - even though the Mail claims to have done a small survey.

Edited March 26, 2017 by billybong

[Venger]

27 minutes ago, PSP said:

The big yang will come to the south at some point ! 

It already has in the north ! 

The problem will will be when it does hit the south lending and funding to the individual will dry up ! 

Many of renters who sit on the sideline now won't get a look in, if they haven't saved huge percentage deposits .

As the thread says there are millions  of people  without 100 in the bank ! 

Jobs fooked we may go back to 90 percent rental property like the 1900s, where owning property will seem like madness for anybody other than outright cash buying corporations !

That is the yang scenario that worries me .

not a blip buying opportunity for for more house price ramping ! 

Jobs can be created when fewer people kicking up so much to a tiny landlord class, and able to afford houses at lower prices.  Money flows more productively.

Are you here as the house price protector?   Yang it all the way.  

1 hour ago, PSP said:

I am old, I also lived through black Wednesday ! I remember well the desperation of people as we went to 15 % interest rates! 

I am anti  high debt full stop ! 

...I feel sad that young twenty year olds have to feel they have to conform to a certain ilk of having it all ! 

Things go in cycles this ''tis the biggest credit lending boom ever ! The big yin !

i am concerned  how bad the big yang will be ! 

Like you said life is for living to the full, I am just from a generation where living life debted up to the max brings stress rather than pleasure!

Have you got a mortgage?  £225K Blackburn houses...?   Dare to tell me the highest level of debt you've been in?

No debt here, nor for many other renter-savers I know of.  Deposits in position, against the grind and years of paying upto the BTLers.  Big debt would be required to buy at these prices, so many don't buy, but rent from the millions of homes on the BTL side.   

Can't do anything to stop those who have chosen to buy at ever higher prices.  Many on very good incomes.  They know their positions better than anyone else, outbidding all others.   One buyer on HPC is buying for fear of savers having their money bailed in, and has a view that homeowners will be bailed out, and renter-savers to carry more.  His choice.  If the Yang does ever come in, it's for him to see if it affects him, and whether he was right about HPI and renters getting crushed again.  I choose Yang for him, rather than renters carrying his debt position in a bailout.

[PSP]

7 minutes ago, Venger said:

 

I am not willing to do totally without, and many older owners sat on fortunes of HPI treat themselves big time as well..... holidays, iphones, tvs, new kitchens.

An iphone and other treats are part of living, and against wider house prices, are not really a factor.   Maybe give up some of the mad-gainz, instead of expecting younger people to go with nothing in order to pay mad-prices?

What did you go without when buying?  So many older owners claim they had to save for a full year for their deposit and did with old furniture for a while...

In some places below 2007 peak.

£225,000 houses Blackburn way.... with our minds we make the world, and I don't see the great value you see with £200K+ houses around that way.

What's that... an hour in the car to Manchester / hour on the train (Manchester Victoria)?

If your own circumstances, as an older owner, are comfy around there, with those price, then good on you.   I guess a lot of Southerners to buy in Blackburn would support prices, and lock in the bubble HPI?

I was only a young kid when we left Blackburn for South Manchester, but parents took us on many an evening car trip over the dark moors from Manchester back to their house in Blackburn.   No idea why they went that way.  One time a runaway horse, really pelting it from around a corner (I thought it was in the field) narrowly missed colliding into us.  

See prices in South Manchester.   Loads of areas in the North that are 2007 + 30%.  

The problem with a HPC in South is that lending will dry up.... making it even harder for renter savers?   Then prices will have to fall even further!

There is your happy view of the corporations buying up all the houses, and I admit there is some risk, having seen it play out in the USA.   A renter-saver future until death... with so many people not having much by way of pension, and others, mostly on older side, holding homeownership riches.... for an inheritor economy.  

Got to hope you are wrong about that.  At least banks and wider society better served by widespread homeownership.

My Yang scenario of 90 percent of housing returning to large renting corporations is the worst of the worst! 

However with so many younger people without any real savings, be it a 100 , 1000 or ten thousand! 

I no longer see a desire in the 20-30 year old group to buy a great percentage started on the housing ladder renting a Uni.

Lets face it , they rent phones, rent cars, rent TVs , rent white goods , rent houses, a huge percentage now go to uni and rent from day one at uni , it is the norm to Get a loan to go to uni ? My kids have 50 k debts in their young 20s and it is okay and the norm, almost indoctrinated by the system into a debt society from 18 via student loans? 

 

30/40 years ago people didn't go to uni, (those that did got grants) people saved up and bought a house . People today can't do that !

 

May be thats just just the future norm of society to rent and be in debt and rent  ! 

 The 30-45 generation still want to buy because a majority their parents did and made paper profits ? 

But that generation 30-45 is now still renting and bring children up in rented ? So the next generation coming through now a much bigger percentage the norm will be to rent ? It is the norm in most of Europe to rent so maybe we are just in transition a big yang won't appear and we slowly move to 80/90 % renting over several generations ?

[Venger]

 

9 minutes ago, PSP said:

May be thats just just the future norm of society to rent and be in debt and rent  ! 

 The 30-45 generation still want to buy because a majority their parents did and made paper profits ? 

But that generation 30-45 is now still renting and bring children up in rented ? So the next generation coming through now a much bigger percentage the norm will be to rent ? It is the norm in most of Europe to rent so maybe we are just in transition a big yang won't appear and we slowly move to 80/90 % renting over several generations ?

Well as you're so concerned with the Yang appearing (jobs fooked), and see cheap £200K houses in Blackburn, and also hold out for huge amounts more HPI to hit your area from priced out Southerners going to live in your area.... seems you have your own VI.

It's interesting how you really lean to a rental future for majority of younger people as you do.   Another possibility is HPC.  And that not being House Price Corporates buying up all the housing stock to rent back to the young.

We're not jealous of your mad-gainz!!!!! 

Paper profits?   Many of us look to homeownership, as you have enjoyed, have a stake in society/community, to not be bossed around by landlords, housing security, and to personalise our living arrangements as we would like to.    Homes for living in, raising a family... kids who know how to find their way back to a home and to make friends in an area, not on regular S21 move/rent rises BTLer inspections bossed around....  and not ego-ing about what it is worth / assetz.

If it's so wonderful be a renter yourself.....

 

 

Quote

 

  On 9/7/2015 at 6:52 PM, Neverwhere said:

...Homeownerism is the natural state, the thing which we evolved to do - shelter ourselves and our families. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that impulses.

Landlordism, on the other hand, causes insecurity of shelter and all of the associated social ills that go with that and effectively imposes a greater burden of taxation on renters than on any other sector of society as their taxes effectively compensate for land rights and yet they have no free access to land and must pay for a second time in order to shelter themselves.

Everyone should have the opportunity to have security of shelter and the best way to achieve that would be through compensated property rights, a removal of all taxes on income and productivity, and widespread homeownership. Maybe those first two are pipe dreams but they are worth arguing for, and in the meantime we can at least practically shoot for the last one: housepricecrash!

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, PSP said:

we we have been here before ! There is no pricing out with big debt in the north ! 

 The north has had its correction ! 

My only worry about the north is an influx of southern money driving prices up over the next few years !

The problem it seems with you is ywant all the nice things,you want today's technology, today's fast cars, today's pace of life, today's low priced finance economy ! Then today's housing stock at yesterday's prices ! 

Wake up son ! Stop dreaming buy the  house of your dreams stop wasting your money  on nice things and crack on !

Not at those prices in Blackburn, no matter if there are some nice parts.

56 minutes ago, PSP said:

The big yang will come to the south at some point ! 

...The problem will will be when it does hit the south lending and funding to the individual will dry up ! 

Many of renters who sit on the sideline now won't get a look in, if they haven't saved huge percentage deposits .

As the thread says there are millions  of people  without 100 in the bank ! 

Jobs fooked 

That is the yang scenario that worries me .

 

[Venger]

Mix of what 'no savings' actually means for many people, when you pan out from headline statement.

Quote

 

The Times
Mr.DD 20 hours ago
Many people now realise that if they have no savings the government will just have to give them a share of someone else's savings.

 

Mumsnet

CremeEggThief Fri 30-Sep-16 20:47:09
Not at all surprised. I have £100 in savings at the moment. I don't see the point in having more than £6000 in savings though, as it affects any benefits you might be able to claim

Purplebluebird Fri 30-Sep-16 21:09:02
it's very easy to say "living beyond their means", but for some people the difference is renting a small flat for your family rather than a room in a shared house...

Tropicana1980 Sat 01-Oct-16 10:47:25
Do these 16 million people have no assets as well as no savings? 
I know a couple of people who I get the impression don't have any, or at least any significant, savings but they both have homes which they own outright (no mortgage) which their parents have bought for them so I don't really feel sorry for them! 

Babyroobs Sat 01-Oct-16 12:33:15
I have no savings ( DH does but in his own account from inheritance). However we have no mortgage and could save more if we cut back on spending and budgeted a bit better.

Irush Sat 01-Oct-16 17:43:10
No savings 
Bought our house 18 years ago for 121k, have a tiny mortgage and house is now worth around 700k 
And dh has a big pension

ImSoTakei Sat 01-Oct-16 17:47:06
I have £110 in an envelope in my bed room.
Currently have £351 in the bank. Rented house. No car. No jewellery. 
Makes me sad I have absolutely nothing to leave my children.

ScaredAboutTheFuture Sat 01-Oct-16 17:48:30
We have savings but as said above we now won't get any help now DH has been made redundant. Wish we hadn't bothered saving and had had the lovely holidays that we forfitted.

Poshsausage Sat 01-Oct-16 18:27:50
No savings here just debt 
We rent 
No pensions 
No parents so no inheritances 
Left the care system with no idea about apr or money and am still paying it bqck in my forties 
Oh and my car has just broken down and I don't know how I'm going to get the children to school

allthingsred Sat 01-Oct-16 18:43:16
Doesn't surprise me at all. Me & my partner both work full time. We private rent & if we ever reach 0.00 in our bank account it's a good month. We live in our overdraft & I genuinely can't see it ever changing

blinkowl Sat 01-Oct-16 18:48:30
I have no savings, no pension and a shit load of debt.
My shoes right now hurt my feet but I can't afford a new pair. It's shit.
On the bright side, DC are well-fed, well-clothed and doing brilliantly at school, and I own my own house outright so I don't have to worry about losing our home at least. No idea how we're going to get out of the debt. Just got to keep going on and hope I can afford to pay it all off one day.

DramaInPyjamas Sat 01-Oct-16 18:56:50
I had 6k in savings and the children had 1k each in their accounts at the start of the year. 
We are all now at zero balance due to splitting with my husband having to decorate and furnish new home / his 'joint' debts he left us with that I knew nothing about / various other stuff
It broke my heart to clear their accounts but it had to be done. 
Hopefully I will be able to start building up the kids savings again (with interest) in the new year but if I didn't have those savings in the first place I really don't know what we would have done. So scary.

BennyTheBall Sat 01-Oct-16 19:38:42
It doesn't surprise me that people don't save. Lots of people live month to month.
In fact, some of our 'wealthiest' friends have no savings whatsoever, despite having what could be perceived as very high incomes. Having said that, £100 could hardly be described as 'savings' for many.

BurnTheBlackSuit Sat 01-Oct-16 19:44:58
We have no savings, because they are pointless. We are over paying our mortgage with extra money. And the overpayments in the mortgage can be withdrawn if necessary. Better to pay off the mortgage, than have savings sitting in a bank account not earning interest.

Fairylea Sat 01-Oct-16 21:53:59
We have no savings, and thousands of debt. But we also have a lot of equity in our home and credit cards with 0% interest with lots of credit available for emergencies. I think we are lucky really compared to a lot of people but if dh lost his job we would struggle very quickly. (I am a carer for our disabled son).

dementedma Sun 02-Oct-16 09:44:29
Doesn't surprise me at all . Dh and I both work and have the princely sum of £700 saved. We have a mortgage and two car loans ( both cars second hand and both needed as we live rurally and both have an hour's commute to work).
This is the most we have ever had in savings and we are in our fifties!

maggiethemagpie Tue 04-Oct-16 15:06:38
I have 2k in savings, but I also have 3k on credit cards so should I take that figure off my savings?
We do have a safety net, DH has a flat in central london (no mortgage) which is basically paying for him to be a SAHD at the moment but if the apocalypse happened we could always rely on it for income. I used to have no savings in my 20s, I flitted from job to job and looking back sometimes the wolf was quite close to the door but I always seemed to manage and find work when I needed to. I had to take some shite jobs though (beggars can't be choosers) so I wouldn't want to be in that position again.

Myusernameismyusername Sat 08-Oct-16 10:12:06
I also rent which is part of the killer of most of my income

 

It's a market out there, and my sympathy is with many of the renters in this no-savings.

HPC and followed by 100% mortgages, to get a stake in society.

[PSP]

4 minutes ago, Venger said:

Mix of what 'no savings' actually means for many people, when you pan out from headline statement.

It's a market out there, and my sympathy is with many of the renters in this no-savings.

HPC and followed by 100% mortgages, to get a stake in society.

Venger ,

 

this whole tit for tat started when you followed me onto this thread, took my comments out of context and had a go! 

Why do that ? I am fully entitled to me views so are you ! Unfortunately we have different views. I am happy in life chilled and see things a different way to you !  You are angry frustrated and all over the place ! Chill man ! The people are skint it is a tough place and the people in charge are grooming more and more renters ! 

Have a good day 

cheers 

 

Psp

[Venger]

1 minute ago, PSP said:

this whole tit for tat started when you followed me onto this thread, took my comments out of context and had a go! 

Why do that ? I am fully entitled to me views so are you ! Unfortunately we have different views. I am happy in life chilled and see things a different way to you !  You are angry frustrated and all over the place ! Chill man ! The people are skint it is a tough place and the people in charge are grooming more and more renters ! 

Have a good day 

cheers 

Psp

There's no ill-feeling on my part PSP... although some of your claims are true.... it is a testing situation which leads to some frustration on my side.  

Especially against HPI and those who see a homeownership view for themselves and wonder if 30+ year olds only want homeownership for they see the paper-gains of their parents.  !!! 

The horrors of a HPC (yang.... 'jobs fooked'), but anticipated HPI from South to North, and a future of corporate buying up homes if any HPC, with renting the big future for priced out today, and in rest of the future.   

If there is no conflict in discussion, how can we test positions?  Do not take my combative posting style as anything personal.

With S24 it looks like they are tipping into the BTLers as well (not grooming more people for rent).... and possibility of a big change ahead for renters to become homeowners at lower prices.

Out of context?  Although when I tipped in, it was to just stand up for my point of view that people with iphones don't need to be looked down upon, and could be wrong to judge someone because iphone/nice clothes/holidays.... projecting a view where it's all mindless conformists in debt.  (How do you know?)

I don't see this at all:   

I feel sad that young twenty year olds have to feel they have to conform to a certain ilk of having it all ! 

Hmm against these house prices, on the renter-saver forever side?   

Just do not accept the 'do without' an iphone/car/holidays, to be able to afford current house prices.  And wanting lower prices while living is not demanding too much in looking for "yesterday's house prices".

Quote

 Grif: Or maybe their Command has been giving them the same generic orders ours always gives us like, "Try to win" and, "Do better than you're currently doing," and "Also, try to do better."

 

[winkie]