UK Economy is a Confidence Trick

[South Lorne]

5 hours ago, jo_gian said:

I meant a year. But it is still like a mortgage, a grand per month.

...well the data should read different in Scotland ..where it is free...!...like prescriptions ...!..where is the analysis to compare performance ...it's a perfect life line for comparison...the data scientists could have a field day ...where are they when they are needed....?....

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

6 hours ago, hotairmail said:

There is no such thing as 'EU largesse'. Someone pays for it. You know who it is.

It pains me when I see the state of our infrastructure and then see little blue placques everywhere on pristine new airports and roads in the likes of Spain and Poland.

We have literally gone backwards relatively speaking since our time in the EU.

What we do have:

1. No one speaks better English than an educated Englishman.

2. Stability (easily forgotten but not to be sniffed at).

3. Rule of Law and recognition of property rights.

4. Excellent top level universtities (who seem to be throwing away this advantage by seeking foreign students more because they pay bigger fees!)

5. The City

6. The legal system.

But then no-one, except an educated Englishman, speaks English better than an Educate Norwegian, Dutchman Greek, German or American...................

I have always worked for global firms, and frankly my colleagues from any of the above countries are better at speaking English than than the bottom 90% of English speakers.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Mikhail Liebenstein

[ElPapasito]

6 hours ago, hotairmail said:

There is no such thing as 'EU largesse'. Someone pays for it. You know who it is.

It pains me when I see the state of our infrastructure and then see little blue placques everywhere on pristine new airports and roads in the likes of Spain and Poland.

We have literally gone backwards relatively speaking since our time in the EU.

What we do have:

1. No one speaks better English than an educated Englishman.

2. Stability (easily forgotten but not to be sniffed at).

3. Rule of Law and recognition of property rights.

4. Excellent top level universtities (who seem to be throwing away this advantage by seeking foreign students more because they pay bigger fees!)

5. The City

6. The legal system.

4.  A university system producing cutting edge technology and IP in nearly every field, and getting better at spin out.

[Arpeggio]

1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

I have always worked for global firms, and frankly my colleagues from any of the above countries are better at speaking English than than the bottom 90% of English speakers.

tru dat innit bruv! 

[Frugal Git]

7 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

But then no-one, except an educated Englishman, speaks English better than an Educate Norwegian, Dutchman Greek, German or American...................

I have always worked for global firms, and frankly my colleagues from any of the above countries are better at speaking English than than the bottom 90% of English speakers.

Well said. I've colleagues from Europe and Asia with knowledge of the English language - especially in terms of formal grammar - that surpasses mine. They are simply better educated, and have put in genuine effort to learn it, as opposed to us who pick it up - bad habits included - via osmosis given we have spent our lives in an English speaking environment - which - let us be brutally honest - was just luck of birth.

Anyway, in business all one needs is to be skilled at getting the most salient points across in any discussion. That is down to general intelligence, and we aren't special in any regard here versus anyone else when it comes to that. 

[ccc]

13 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Yes I know there are a lot of EE in these areas but I doubt they are from the poorest and least educated levels of society in Poland and elsewhere. Generally they are the least likely to move country.

Was true maybe ten years ago. Not today. Loads and i mean LOADS of Polish have arrived in the UK in recent years and don't even speak basic English. They don't have too. 

[ccc]

13 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Yes I know there are a lot of EE in these areas but I doubt they are from the poorest and least educated levels of society in Poland and elsewhere. Generally they are the least likely to move country.

Was true maybe ten years ago. Not today. Loads and i mean LOADS of Polish have arrived in the UK in recent years and don't even speak basic English. They don't have too. 

[spyguy]

8 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

But then no-one, except an educated Englishman, speaks English better than an Educate Norwegian, Dutchman Greek, German or American...................

I have always worked for global firms, and frankly my colleagues from any of the above countries are better at speaking English than than the bottom 90% of English speakers.

Sadly that is true.

[Futuroid]

 

2 minutes ago, ccc said:

Was true maybe ten years ago. Not today. Loads and i mean LOADS of Polish have arrived in the UK in recent years and don't even speak basic English. They don't have too. 

It's the immigrants init!

[ccc]

1 minute ago, Futuroid said:

 

It's the immigrants init!

I responded to a point someone made. If you'd like to comment on that then please feel free. 

A silly little gif of Putin makes you look rather childish. 

[spyguy]

4 minutes ago, ccc said:

Was true maybe ten years ago. Not today. Loads and i mean LOADS of Polish have arrived in the UK in recent years and don't even speak basic English. They don't have too. 

Treu.

The era of young, well educated Poles/EEs ended about 8 years ago.

Whats followed was families seeking benefits.

You can differentiate between wage arbitration - blokes/young people working, live in caravans/above pub.

And benefit arbitration - families turn up,, kids, GPs, etc.

The UK is a good 5 years into the latter.

Now we are getting just plain old scum, following the free money theyve heard about. Half the dossers in the town are various EEers now.

I wtinessed the end result of some sort of disagreement in some cheap flats near me. There was bloke slumped outside with a massive stab wound.  Iasked if they had rang an ambulnace but all I got back was Polskilsh about a frined coming to pick them up and take him to hospital.

The paper described the incident as involving a 'local man'

[spyguy]

Not sure about the point futorid is trying to make.

Im making a statement -   loads of EEer migrants have come int othe UK over the last 2 years. The brexit vote, despite the claims, did not affect the surge, in fact it appears to have increased the flow - Get in before the door is shut, Id guess.

 

I would guess, and its a good guess, that FOM will be kept but right to claim benefits will be stopped.

I also think you'll see non Brits being charged ~6k/kid for schooling.

 

[EssKay]

1 hour ago, Frugal Git said:

Anyway, in business all one needs is to be skilled at getting the most salient points across in any discussion. That is down to general intelligence, and we aren't special in any regard here versus anyone else when it comes to that. 

Exactly.

 

Our economy has become heavily dependent on the service sector (80% of GDP). There is no reason those jobs should stay in the UK when lots of cheaper alternatives are available.

 

And this is before you add a hard Brexit into the mix which will accelerate the exodus. Or automation, which will remove the need for some of them entirely.

 

The one way out that I can see is massive investment in research and infrastructure to get us ahead of the automation wave.

 

There's precious little sign of that happening though

[ccc]

I'm not sure of Futuroids point either. 

Seems to be going down the "If someone points out uncomfortable things re. immigrants let's just all call them racist" route.

All I'm saying is I'm seeing the same as you. Big surge in numbers and mainly of people that don't even seem interested in learning the language. 

Some people don't think this is anything to be concerned about. 

Personally i think that's nuts.

May needs to come out with a date asap - hopefully not two years time - as I've previously said - i think there will be many millions heading our way. 

[Futuroid]

4 minutes ago, ccc said:

I'm not sure of Futuroids point either. 

That you blame everything on Eastern Europeans.

It's pretty clear, but then I guess you're not the sharpest tool...

[ccc]

For the OP.

My pals last two jobs have been in a team that's got work being done for it in Poland. I've asked him numerous times if he was concerned that his role would go the same way. Not so far. Everything still has to come via the Edinburgh office for final checks as their work isn't at the level where they can be left to go it alone. That's what he says anyway. 

They apparently are pretty decent at their work - certainly not in the Indian outsourcing level of potential issues - but not up to UK levels.

Just one anecdote from one person but i found it interesting and a bit surprising.

[ccc]

2 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

That you blame everything on Eastern Europeans.

It's pretty clear, but then I guess you're not the sharpest tool...

I blame everything on Eastern Europeans ? You do talk some nonsense.

[spyguy]

2 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

That you blame everything on Eastern Europeans.

It's pretty clear, but then I guess you're not the sharpest tool...

Cant speak for ccc - hes got his own mouth.

I blame the surge in EEers for about 1/3 of the vote to leave the EU.

I also blame them for a fair chunk of the UK's current budget deficit.

Sure, there were other things - Crusty old Colonels types, Merkels stupid 'Let everyone policy'

But Im poretty sure if we did not have about ~7m EErs move into the UK then we'd still be in Europe.

 

[ccc]

1 hour ago, ccc said:

Was true maybe ten years ago. Not today. Loads and i mean LOADS of Polish have arrived in the UK in recent years and don't even speak basic English. They don't have too. 

So Futuroid - what am I "Blaming" in the above ? 

I'm just saying what i see in response to another poster who doesn't think poor and less educated EE are here in large numbers. 

[Futuroid]

5 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Cant speak for ccc - hes got his own mouth.

You guys are like a racist Laurel and Hardy, but without the laughs. 

[spyguy]

3 minutes ago, ccc said:

For the OP.

My pals last two jobs have been in a team that's got work being done for it in Poland. I've asked him numerous times if he was concerned that his role would go the same way. Not so far. Everything still has to come via the Edinburgh office for final checks as their work isn't at the level where they can be left to go it alone. That's what he says anyway. 

They apparently are pretty decent at their work - certainly not in the Indian outsourcing level of potential issues - but not up to UK levels.

Just one anecdote from one person but i found it interesting and a bit surprising.

Outsourcing any skilled task/job always follows a well trodden path:

1) We are haing problems recruiting xyz skill i.e. we dont want to pay for the skill.

2) Look! Other Co. has outsourced to XYZtopia. There's loads of people available.

3) Expensive outsource task starts .....

4) 2 years in, they find there are issues - mainly as the compnay did not understand the task being outsourced, and how it was core to their business - 'What do you mean it'll take 6 months and cost 50k to have >whatever>?? When it was in house it would be done in 1 week and not costs anything.' Yes, well youve turned a tas kinto a profit centre for another compnay. Theyll do nothign for free and the oversight /contracts process kicks in on anything not in orignal process.

5) We are having problems recruiting the skills now. We are getting people but they are not as good as the rignal people, who've all left and eanr more than we were paying people in the UK.

6) We are really churning staff. We are having to spend all our time going through teh same basic tasks with new people. We were prmised that that would all be done by the outsourcers but they have noone with experience and if we dont help them out then the project will fail.

7) Can someone go over and help out the out sourcer? They are in a real mess and the project is really late. WHats that? the UK staff are leaving.

Ive picked up the pieces of a couple of attempts.

I anyone suggests outsourcing now I insist that someone in local management is help responsible for the delivery.

 

 

[spyguy]

2 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

You guys are like a racist Laurel and Hardy, but without the laughs. 

Im Caucasian. Im guessing ccc is.

EEer are Caucasian is too.

Want to expand?

 

[ccc]

Some good fishing going on here from future boy. 

I'm not going to bite anymore.

[stormymonday_2011]

7 minutes ago, ccc said:

Some good fishing going on here from future boy. 

I'm not going to bite anymore.

Don't feed the troll

[EssKay]

21 minutes ago, ccc said:

My pals last two jobs have been in a team that's got work being done for it in Poland. I've asked him numerous times if he was concerned that his role would go the same way. Not so far. Everything still has to come via the Edinburgh office for final checks as their work isn't at the level where they can be left to go it alone. That's what he says anyway. 

They apparently are pretty decent at their work - certainly not in the Indian outsourcing level of potential issues - but not up to UK levels.

 

I'd agree that they're not up to U.K. levels of capability/competence *yet* - but they're not far off - they just need experience.

 

I think there's a danger here of complacency based on past experience with flawed outsourcing models with the big Indian outsourcing companies.

 

Offshoring these days is increasingly about hiring people direct in offshore locations - i.e. you recruit them and you develop them and give them a career path. There's still a certain level of turnover but there are people in our Polish location that have been there 3-4 years.