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The Evening (lack of) Standard(s) goes ramping mad

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A few choice bits:

Hannah (27) & Will (29) - art director and tech start up person...

1 bed flat in Deptford 

£25k down, £12k stamp duty £398k mortgage 

Couldn't afford spmewhere they wanted to live but chose Deptford for its "potential"

Now £600 a month better off than they were as renters

------------------

That 1 bed hobbit cottage in Chelsea made £714k - 20% over asking

-----------------

"Gazumping is back in central London revival" (headline)

Brexit bargains

Short of stock in the 3 to 5 million range

Boom in the Burbs

 

Etc...

 

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3 minutes ago, disenfranchised said:

 £398k mortgage 

 

Feck me, I think we need to stand back and consider this^

in what parallel universe is it sensible for a young couple to take on this level of debt?  Totally removed from reality.  It is hard to imagine what would happen if the asset on which this was borrowed suddenly became 'worth' a lot less. A multitude of lifetimes to pay this off.

feck me.  Madness  

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17 minutes ago, disenfranchised said:

A few choice bits:

Hannah (27) & Will (29) - art director and tech start up person...

1 bed flat in Deptford 

£25k down, £12k stamp duty £398k mortgage 

Couldn't afford spmewhere they wanted to live but chose Deptford for its "potential"

Now £600 a month better off than they were as renters

------------------

That 1 bed hobbit cottage in Chelsea made £714k - 20% over asking

-----------------

"Gazumping is back in central London revival" (headline)

Brexit bargains

Short of stock in the 3 to 5 million range

Boom in the Burbs

 

Etc...

 

But they had been renting in Putney and swapped it for the delights of Deptford. No wonder they saved £600 pm

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They have another article advising of the 5 bedrooms houses you can get commutable distance from London if you sell your 2bed London flat , unsurprisingly Luton is picked out again ... 

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10 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

But they had been renting in Putney and swapped it for the delights of Deptford. No wonder they saved £600 pm

Well Greenwich park is nearby, ISH lol.

I think I'd prefer luton to deptford...

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53 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Feck me, I think we need to stand back and consider this^

in what parallel universe is it sensible for a young couple to take on this level of debt?  Totally removed from reality.  It is hard to imagine what would happen if the asset on which this was borrowed suddenly became 'worth' a lot less. A multitude of lifetimes to pay this off.

feck me.  Madness  

Yeah, but... Come on, it's a 1-bed flat in Deptford.

You get a whole bedroom. In Deptford.

No wonder they sold their lives to pay for it (or at least probably 30 years of their lives). 

Plus it will be worth a million by 2019.

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14 minutes ago, Tempus said:

Yeah, but... Come on, it's a 1-bed flat in Deptford.

You get a whole bedroom. In Deptford.

No wonder they sold their lives to pay for it (or at least probably 30 years of their lives). 

Plus it will be worth a million by 2019.

Silly me. I didn't notice it was deptford.  A wonderful place well worth the enslavery of these people, their children and their children's children. Deptford.  Maybe it will be gentrified and the passport in will be a beard resplendent with beard wax. Hipsters everywhere and the price of their one bedroom flat will indeed be worth a million. 

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I see Hannah and Will saved £600 a month by moving from Fulham to Deptford.  Good for them - why rent somewhere nice when you can buy up and coming!

An art director and tech start up person too - should have no bother paying off the £400k mortgage.

Edited by MARTINX9

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The sums in London are astronomical and I don't know how FTB sleep at night. Almost a decade ago, I was looking at 2BR houses in a less than salubrious part of east London at £160K-180K and I felt like buying was like looking into the abyss. I got the same feelings of being pulled off a edge and rising panic as if I was actually walking a narrow cliff top path with a 3000+ ft drop on one side. 

The sub £100K I eventually did pay way outside of London still felt like a breathtakingly large sum of money - especially given how long it had taken to save it.

How we have normalised such horrifically large sums of debt I will never fully appreciate. It is as close as most of us will get to enslavement in modern day society. 

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49 minutes ago, StainlessSteelCat said:

The sums in London are astronomical and I don't know how FTB sleep at night. Almost a decade ago, I was looking at 2BR houses in a less than salubrious part of east London at £160K-180K and I felt like buying was like looking into the abyss. I got the same feelings of being pulled off a edge and rising panic as if I was actually walking a narrow cliff top path with a 3000+ ft drop on one side. 

The sub £100K I eventually did pay way outside of London still felt like a breathtakingly large sum of money - especially given how long it had taken to save it.

How we have normalised such horrifically large sums of debt I will never fully appreciate. It is as close as most of us will get to enslavement in modern day society. 

Other people have their own market perspectives and positions.  

It would not be as it is, were that not the actual reality of the matter.

I don't know what getting your first £200,000 profit-share split / bonus is like, but many other people do. 

I have no debt and rent, within a level of affordability.  Not enslaved.  It is nothing whatsoever to do with enslavement in this market, for the buyer and owner side especially.   Patient and hoping for a housing market readustment in my area.

Other people have lots of BTLs.  Smilers in Telegraph with £600K-£1.8m homes owned outright.  We're in a market full of different positions.  

Understand you main point, but no one is stopping those owning houses at these values from looking to sell up.   No one could stop the main debt BTLers from doubling down in last 6 years.

It's far less of a 'horrifically large sums of debt' victim/innocence situation (if at all), but rather many sitting very comfy in the market to extremes, and who don't need projection about them being innocent/victims/enslaved.

Values are set at the margin and houses sell at these prices every day.  Buyers and sellers set the values for the entire market.   Including older owners in £1.8m owned outright house who bought that house for £150K back in their day.

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Quote

reported pre-tax profits up from £2million in 2009 to £4.3million last year, according to the company's most recent accounts.   The company, which began trading in the seventies, paid shareholders £1 million in dividends in 2010, up from £450,000 the year before.   With 86 per cent of the shares between them, -------- and his son ----- pocketed the vast majority of that payout. 

Think there was £2m dividend at that particular company paid in more recent times.

Then someone I personally know of now reaping the big money.

It's a market out there.  People have choice to rent, buy, BTL, own/sell.

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5 minutes ago, Venger said:

Other people have their own market perspectives and positions.  

It would not be as it is, were that not the actual reality of the matter.

I don't know what getting your first £200,000 profit-share split / bonus is like, but many other people do. 

I have no debt and rent, within a level of affordability.  Not enslaved.  It is nothing whatsoever to do with enslavement in this market, for the buyer and owner side especially.   Patient and hoping for a housing market readustment in my area.

Other people have lots of BTLs.  Smilers in Telegraph with £600K-£1.8m homes owned outright.  We're in a market full of different positions.  

Understand you main point, but no one is stopping those owning houses at these values from looking to sell up.   No one could stop the main debt BTLers from doubling down in last 6 years.

It's far less of a 'horrifically large sums of debt' victim/innocence situation (if at all), but rather many sitting very comfy in the market to extremes, and who don't need projection about them being innocent/victims/enslaved.

Values are set at the margin and houses sell at these prices every day.  Buyers and sellers set the values for the entire market.   Including older owners in £1.8m owned outright house who bought that house for £150K back in their day.

 

Given that you occasionally quote one of my posts on this topic, I reckon you probably know my view on this. No-one has to participate (and those that do need to take responsibility for their own choices).  Prices are high because enough people want them to do be. 

It still baffles me that people chose to voluntarily put the shackles of large sums of debt around their own neck, but I won't lose any sleep over their freely chosen circumstances (except through posting at 3.30 am!). 

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Absolutely StainlessSteelCat  (I read and enjoyed the first sci-fi book in a series called StainlessSteelRat).  Is your cat version even smarter than he was, with all his advanced misdirection to evade the authorities in his criminal planning?

Total logic here which hit the mark for me.

On 5/7/2016 at 10:32 PM, canbuywontbuy said:

If you give people a choice of cheap housing or cheap goods, 99% of people will take cheap housing because you can at least plan your life if you can buy a house. Honestly, this thread's been kind of hijacked with the "wow, young people have cheap tellys these days, it kind of balances out the fact they'll never own a home!" trope...

 

On 5/8/2016 at 5:33 AM, StainlessSteelCat said:

Plainly not true. People have had the ability to make that choice by not participating in an overheated market (which would have brought down prices) over the last couple of decades. But almost everyone was "happy" to pay inflated prices - often on the expectation that the prices would continue to further increase. Also there have been almost no protests about it either (unlike say the price of petrol). Individually, and rationally, they might say they want cheaper housing - but that is not how they collectively act.

 

On 5/8/2016 at 9:04 AM, StainlessSteelCat said:

I think my point is that if you want cheap house prices the rational choice at the moment is for everyone not to buy - a buyers strike - regardless of whether the bank will lend you the money. As Venger regularly reminds us - no-one is forced into taking the bank's shilling.

If no-one's buying, prices will fall. In the absence of sensible government policy and bank lending - collection action by striking and protest is the only rational choice - and one which could have been exercised at any point in the last decade and a half. But people don't take that route so ergo they actually want high prices.

It's a cliche that almost every house buyer wants prices to be low, until they have one. That's because individual's need to treat a house as an investment vehicle and a source of prestige seems to take priority over the collective need for cheap shelter.

Its batshit insane in my view - and is essentially eating our young. But successive governments are giving voters what they apparently want - which is high house prices. If 99% of us wanted cheap housing, we would have it.

 

However, in a market, even a news-story about a well-publicised "buyers strike" would do nothing.

That is where we differ.  You seem to think people just need to be told a few themes from HPC, and that would stop them buying?  Once they had received "the HPC enlightenment"? 

Everyone has their own market view.   What you are angling at is trying to make millions of other people tune in to your / our view.  It doesn't work.   There are no victims here on buying or owner side.   They make their choices, and in many areas, year after year, their buying prices are intrinsically linked to making the situation far more challenging for renters.  

You want to find someone to blame... blame the actual buyers.  Not forgive them!   I don't actually blame them because I don't know them, and they have their own read of the market, some with vast incomes and BOMAD, and are responsible for their own house buying decisions.   Most buyers in recent years way ahead of me in position vs house prices, in the current market, let alone back in 2004.  No one is coming with a rebate for all the hassle and rent I've had over the non-owner renting years against HPI++++++++++++++.

On 5/8/2016 at 10:50 AM, StainlessSteelCat said:

Good for you for arguing with those with the power to do something about it. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have worked so perhaps it is worth trying something else.

The rest of your comment, however, does seem to suggest that 99% do not want cheap houses i.e. enough are doing well enough out of the status quo, and there's enough aspiring house buyers willing to commit sati.

I grew up in a rental, and then rented for nearly 20 years as an adult so there is an alternative (admittedly a fairly crappy one in my experience). I don't think a well publicised buyers strike would take a decade to get change. Six months to a year would probably be enough to see legislation rushed through. As for other forms of protest, it seems people will get angry and take action about almost anything else except the price of housing.

 

On 5/8/2016 at 10:54 AM, StainlessSteelCat said:

See my earlier reply. If people act individually, then of course it is divide and rule - and nothing will happen. That is true of any change.

I don't see it as like a boycott. I see it as more likely the fuel protests of the early 2000s or the strikes of the 70s or the mass trespass of the 30s. It has be to be widely supported to have the necessary impact.

As I said, unfortunately too many people rather like the status quo.

 

Don't you remember Krusty from 2004.   And the truth is no one else cared either on buyer/owner side, against the concerns of bubbly house prices on HPC.  HPI.   

"What do the loonies and numbskull anarchists know about anything!?  The dirty renters.  The rent forever losers.  Just jealous."

And where are the STRs and buyer strike type people now?  I know I was working 3 jobs in 2004 against runaway HPI, and prices here now 30% above peak.

So we all choose.   Our market reality/research and analysis is not the absolute facts or reality, else the market would not be priced as it is today!

It is what it is worth, and when it goes up, too many people happily accept that... but find it hard to believe their own home can fall.    Can't stop the buyers, is what I am trying to say.   Perhaps they will cool, if there is a serious wobble, and then maybe more buyers freeze out of the market, leading to some cascade.

Quote

 

 

2004 HPCer: ...accuse a website of behaving like insider traders in the stock market.  Still, she seemed a little angry - can't think why

2004 HPCer:  What amazed me is that they allowed her to peddle her incorrect views. The last crash was not caused by high interest rates - we had high interest rates all through the boom - the really high rates came in 1992 before and during the ERM fiasco. The crash was caused by property prices being fuelled by greed and desperation to unaffordable levels. The same thing has happened now. It is not rocket science. Markets have their own dynamics. She referred to the misery a property crash would cause. What about the misery the property boom has caused? Loads of young people unable to afford anywhere to live and those that have managed to clamber on to the first rung of the ladder - saddled with massive mortgage debts. This is a good thing?

2006 HPCer:  When all is said and done, we all found HPC because we took responsibility for our own lives with regards to buying a house, and did some research on the internet. As 1 in 3 people have internet access then 1/3 people have the opportunity to do some digging of their own before they take out such a big loan that will affect their lifelong financial situation. Kirsty has never held a gun to anyones head and made them buy a house. Anyone who would base their home buying decision on a TV programme is being irresponsible.

2004: HPCer:  Insider trading she say, and goes on to say this is illegal in the stock market. Boy next she tell us that comparing car prices should be outlawed.

 

Other from 2004

And KA also had a swipe at us more recently, just after the crunch if I recall.   Something about 'misery' (iirc), in national newspaper.

Edited by Venger

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I don't hold out much hope for a buyers strike because it requires rational action, and most people are not rational when it comes to houses and enough are doing OK out of it. It's not impossible. I don't think it's as difficult as universal suffrage. But it would require a highly motivated group of people. 

Stainless Steel because I have enjoyed the Rat's contrary take on the world including:

Quote

We must be as stealthy as rats in the wainscoting of their society. It was easier in the old days, of course, and society had more rats when the rules were looser, just as old wooden buildings have more rats than concrete buildings. But there are rats in the building now as well. Now that society is all ferrocrete and stainless steel there are fewer gaps in the joints. It takes a very smart rat indeed to find these openings. Only a stainless steel rat can be at home in this environment...

 
 
 
1

I think the gaps in our society are still quite large so it doesn't take a very smart rat to find them and nor do you need to be a criminal. 

Cat because cats win the internet. 

Edited by StainlessSteelCat

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This won't be helping... 

  • Mortgage market 'almost at pre-credit crunch best' claims broker

The number and range of mortgages being offered in the UK has almost returned to its pre-credit crunch level.

That’s the view of Matt Cassar, the managing director of the Finance Advice Centre, who says the market continues to defy pessimists concerned about the economy and Brexit.

Last year more first-time buyers took out mortgages than at any point over the past 10 years and the mortgage market began 2017 strongly with a total of £21.8 billion worth of mortgages taken out in January, up from £20.4 billion the month before.

Cassar says the strength of the market is helped by a diverse range of products including long-term fixed rate deals, mortgages specifically for students, for the over-55s, for buyers who need to borrow 90 per cent of the value of their new home, and also for people with adverse credit histories.

 

At the same time, new figures from the Intermediary Mortgage Lender’s Association showed that mortgage intermediaries, including Finance Advice Centre, experienced a 26 per cent increase in the numbers of inquiries in the last quarter of last year.

“We are almost back to the pre-credit crunch days in terms of the numbers of lenders and variety and amount of products available. There are some variations in mortgage activity when you look deeper but the overall picture - especially when you consider the downbeat predictions that have been issued over the past year - is extremely healthy” says Cassar

https://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2017/3/mortgage-market-almost-at-pre-credit-crunch-best-claims-broker

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24 minutes ago, AvoidDebt said:

This won't be helping... 

  • Mortgage market 'almost at pre-credit crunch best' claims broker

The number and range of mortgages being offered in the UK has almost returned to its pre-credit crunch level.

That’s the view of Matt Cassar, the managing director of the Finance Advice Centre, who says the market continues to defy pessimists concerned about the economy and Brexit.

Last year more first-time buyers took out mortgages than at any point over the past 10 years and the mortgage market began 2017 strongly with a total of £21.8 billion worth of mortgages taken out in January, up from £20.4 billion the month before.

Cassar says the strength of the market is helped by a diverse range of products including long-term fixed rate deals, mortgages specifically for students, for the over-55s, for buyers who need to borrow 90 per cent of the value of their new home, and also for people with adverse credit histories.

 

At the same time, new figures from the Intermediary Mortgage Lender’s Association showed that mortgage intermediaries, including Finance Advice Centre, experienced a 26 per cent increase in the numbers of inquiries in the last quarter of last year.

“We are almost back to the pre-credit crunch days in terms of the numbers of lenders and variety and amount of products available. There are some variations in mortgage activity when you look deeper but the overall picture - especially when you consider the downbeat predictions that have been issued over the past year - is extremely healthy” says Cassar

https://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2017/3/mortgage-market-almost-at-pre-credit-crunch-best-claims-broker

No its not.

Have a look at the lending figures for then and now,

Total BS.

 

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2 hours ago, AvoidDebt said:

This won't be helping... 

  • Mortgage market 'almost at pre-credit crunch best' claims broker

The number and range of mortgages being offered in the UK has almost returned to its pre-credit crunch level.

That’s the view of Matt Cassar, the managing director of the Finance Advice Centre, who says the market continues to defy pessimists concerned about the economy and Brexit.

Last year more first-time buyers took out mortgages than at any point over the past 10 years and the mortgage market began 2017 strongly with a total of £21.8 billion worth of mortgages taken out in January, up from £20.4 billion the month before.

Cassar says the strength of the market is helped by a diverse range of products including long-term fixed rate deals, mortgages specifically for students, for the over-55s, for buyers who need to borrow 90 per cent of the value of their new home, and also for people with adverse credit histories.

 

At the same time, new figures from the Intermediary Mortgage Lender’s Association showed that mortgage intermediaries, including Finance Advice Centre, experienced a 26 per cent increase in the numbers of inquiries in the last quarter of last year.

“We are almost back to the pre-credit crunch days in terms of the numbers of lenders and variety and amount of products available. There are some variations in mortgage activity when you look deeper but the overall picture - especially when you consider the downbeat predictions that have been issued over the past year - is extremely healthy” says Cassar

https://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2017/3/mortgage-market-almost-at-pre-credit-crunch-best-claims-broker

Er, the pre-credit crunch mortgage market was not 'extremely healthy' by definition. 

After a heart attack, you don't try to get back to your pre-heart attack level of cholesterol, do you?

Edited by DrBuyToLeech

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I think I saw this article. Didn't th young couple say they saved the deposit by not going out for 2 years , no holidays, careful with spending on food etc ?

Waste of their life....and all for a deposit on mega-debt. They deserve all that's coming to them. ES journo should have asked them what their plans are once IR's hit 2% :D

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1 hour ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

Er, the pre-credit crunch mortgage market was not 'extremely healthy' by definition. 

After a heart attack, you don't try to get back to your pre-heart attack level of cholesterol, do you?

Only a complete plum would attempt such an undertaking.

Quote

But in a BBC interview Mr Cameron appeared to downplay concerns about the property market. He insisted that allowing for inflation, houses were still cheaper than seven years ago.

“We have to be careful when we look at the figures,” he said. “We are still seeing house prices in real terms that are 15 per cent off the peak they reached in 2007.

“The most recent forecast I saw was that house prices in real terms would not achieve their previous level until 2017/2018.

Mr Cameron also defended the Government’s Help to Buy scheme, which gives guarantees for people taking out mortgages of up to £600,000.

British-Prime-Minister-David-Cameron-203

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