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What to do in the side lines?


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39 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

We don't have a market. Since the 08 crash, everything is tightly controlled by central bankers. Unless you have inside knowledge, you're playing with fire and you're more than likely going to get burned badly, be it with property, stocks, or by just keeping the money in the bank.

Those who have done so (and many renters less likely to take risks with their deposit) have already been hard affected by zoom-up in other investments and against house prices in many areas.

11 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

They've made it impossible for you to store wealth. Only the rich elite can store wealth in this day and age. They want every single person in debt to keep the system going. After all, the system is entirely based on debt. The governments and central bankers have warned people the entire time: either spend your money and get into debt, or they will relieve you of the money one way or another. Now there's only so much debt they can extract from the existent debtors, which is why they turned their attention to savers. Rising inflation with ultra low interest rates and QE is the method they have chosen to relieve savers of money. I believe there is a lot more QE to come by the way. Emigrating sounded great, until I realised that things aren't better anywhere else as pretty much every nation is controlled in a systemic method. There's clearly a New World Order in operation right now, albeit in an early formation at this point.

No they have not.

You may have that fear.  I'm in all the way against these house prices, that my savings are safe in the bank.   Even if they are not, there is no way I will put my savings down against house prices I believe are way too overvalued, and have hope of correction ahead.

No one is forcing you to buy a property at a price you think is too high, to go hard into debt, where prices in many areas scraping new peaks.

Take your position.   You don't want to emigrate.   So what are you doing?   Claiming there are no options and doom?  That this is only the beginning of an attack of those without (mostly younger people), in a market where there are 10s of millions sat on fortunes of asset and financial wealth. 

Your entire argument is one I read/hear so often from the big debt BTL side (who have doubled down) and the happy HPI side, trying to get more people to join them in the quest for HPI (and to protect their house prices) by paying current market prices, or higher.   And you are here peddling it.

You can choose to see this as always the way, or have hope that things will change for the better.

On 1/30/2017 at 5:47 PM, Gush said:

..I don't think anyone is here to make believe someone else of their beliefs.

If you hold on to optimism and hope there are more chances of staying put and holding on to the cash, the more you think pessimistic the quicker you are going to submit to the system that "the powers to be are never let it happen","there is no choice".... and hand over your hard earned net income to someone's cruise tour/bail a BTLer/make kirstie and phil legends.

No one here can give a timetable, they only guess to the best of their knowledge without any vested interests.

 

On 6/20/2016 at 6:37 PM, Dorkins said:

If you want to have a kid just have a kid. My partner and I are from a very similar demographic and geographical area to you and our first was born 3 weeks ago. We took him home to our privately rented house a couple of days later. He's lovely. It can be done.

This crisis will not last forever, don't let the politicians/landlords/estate agents/bankers dictate your life.

We have Section24 in play.  SDLT surcharge.   Reasons for hope.   It is not impossible to grind out some savings in a far better capitalised banking system, and I can't do anything to stop you worriers projecting that savings 'will be taken to support HPI'.   

Just buy if that's how you feel.  Become complicit in a societally destructive housing financialisation situation (in highest priced areas), or perhaps move to where house prices that bit more affordable.   Options.  We all have them in a market.   People rent and save and hope for a turn on BTL and house prices to fall back to a better measure of earnings. If you buy (in very expensive areas), you have taken your decision.

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You people still have your choices. There’s nothing inevitable about it.  (Use of Weapons.)

 

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Just a few ideas:

  • Invest some in inflation proof assets even if you risk taking a hit on them. Your asset can only go to zero, inflation can go to the moon
  • Invest some in something that provides a utility value if the shit hits - I like land, you can live off it
  • Keep some in cash, nobody really knows whether it will turn out to be king or toilet paper 
  • Invest in your own education and skills across a broad spectrum. A second or third language might be fantastically valuable if there's no life to be had here
  • Invest in your own enjoyment - have some fun now because even if the shit doesn't hit, if you wait until 65 before you decide to start enjoying yourself, you'll have a hard time bungee jumping with a wig and false teeth
  • Stop worrying. Do your best to position yourself, and then let the dice roll. You're being forced to take a gamble, just accept it because there's jack shit you can do about it and there's no right or wrong answer to how to position yourself. Respect yourself for having made educated decisions based on your own research and analysis; that's more than about 95% of the rest of the population bother to do. Some of them will get lucky anyway. That's life, don't hate them for it

Good luck.

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95% of the population do no research or analysis for one of the most important decisions in life?

To buy a property at the prices around them (vs renting), or to sell at property when prices zoom high to perhaps downsize?

Everyone has their own market view and their own level of analysis, and responsibility within it.

If anyone is hating on anyone else, seems to me it's those who class themselves as so elite to other people.

 

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And in this 95% of "lessors" / "innocents' some are gifted deeper alternative analysis, but still proceed with what they want to do (to extremes), because they have their own market view.

Fully Detached, on 08 Feb 2016 - 7:59 PM, said:snapback.png

I honestly think that many people view impediments to BTL as proof that property is the hottest ticket in town, and that any spanner thrown in the works has been chucked in there deliberately to try to discourage the faint of heart. It almost seems to make them more determined.

 

Back in 2011, my parents emailed me to ask what I thought about BTL as an investment. My response led to me being somewhat excommunicated, since it apparently wasn't the affirmation they so badly wanted. I recently found out that they'd weighed up my considered opinion, and promptly gone balls deep with not one but 3 BTLs, so I re-read my email response to them, and IIRC 4/5 of the main points I made 5 years ago are looking very close to being proven correct. I'm taking no credit for that because my points were only rehashes of what I read here. But the fact is, they ignored what now increasingly seems like prescient advice and have 3 BTL hanging round their necks, seemingly oblivious to the fact that when the BTL buyer pool exits the market (if not already) the price point where OO buyers can provide any support is a long way below where they think it is.

 

It'll be an interesting conversation.

 

If there is any HPC (which many HPCers been expecting for years and years and years against raging HPI++) all buyers/owners in market made their own choices, with no innocence dance coming to claim they didn't know anything about anything, outbidding all others.   They made their choices seeing the market and world and their incomes (and sometimes BOMAD help) as they saw it.

 

Some a lot more recently than others, sat on mad-gainz where a HPC on all the £Trillions won't affect them.  Although then again renters kicked up many £10Ks of rents during all the years they have called the market wrong, directly to the BTLers.

 

Be interesting if HPC happens on the BTLer double-downers though.   3 BTLs.  Own market choice.   Human beings with their own market view, who proceeded despite it all (housing affordability and supply crisis on younger people, who would also like to be owners).
 

 

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Olde Guto: You won't be thanked.  They'll probably be annoyed at you for being right and annoyed at you for not stopping them.

 

We're in a market and these price levels, that many HPCers complain about in many areas (with some justification imo) are real.  

 

Been real every year of HPI+++ in my area for last 6 years, now 30% above 2007 'old peak' price levels.

 

People have their own market views.   95% of the population don't bother to do any research?  That's superior ego imo, and not the nicest outlook or respect for other people's choices.  The market is the market because people act / take decisions in the market, as we all have to do.

Daily Mail

Average UK house price to hit £780,000 by 2040, says leading think tank

Kilo Charlie, My World, 9 hours ago
We purchased a property in 1983 for £72,000.........today it's worth £650,000 plus. It's certainly possible and quite likely.

Sam, Bucks, 3 hours ago
Bought house in ,74 for 16k added extention about £8k now valued at £480k you do the maths?

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2 minutes ago, Fully Detached said:

Oh do ****** off Venger, would you?

Hah.  Truly pathetic.  

No.  I won't let you strut the forum, with no pushback to your arrogant view of 95% of the population being lessor people when it comes to their view on housing, against the prices we are seeing.   As in not doing any research.

Your parents made their own multiple BTL buying choices in 2011, ignoring your analysis.   

They did their own level or research, and have their own market view, as everyone does in the housing market.

They, alongside millions of other people, have their own views about affordability, mortgages, debt-levels, or whether or not to cash in houses which have risen x50+ in value since they bought them, and downsize, banking huge amounts of cash.

Market.

2011 since your parents bought x3 BTL.  Probably seen quite a whack of HPI, and renters money kicked up to them.  S24.

At these prices, into my 9th year on HPC reading claims about other people 'not knowing what they are doing' - I will push back hard.

On 7/28/2015 at 8:15 AM, Venger said:
  On 7/27/2015 at 2:50 PM, SoldTooSoon said:

Have a listen to the Radio 4 Moneybox Buy to Let episode from last Saturday: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b0631nq3TBH I'm surprised I haven't seen anything on the forum about it

This will give you an idea of who is paying these ridiculous prices. E.g. late middle aged couple paid £490,000 for a one bedroom flat, with stamp duty and furnishings that must be at least £510,000 outlay. They receive £1300 pcm rent, net after service charge etc. That's 3% yield gross! they seem to be happy about probably losing money month to month on the rent because they are in it for the long haul and the massive capital appreciation that will undoubtedly materialise over the next couple of decades. After all, the lady being interviewed bought her own flat in the area for £107,000 which is now worth £650,000!

There will be no price correction until these types of people have been well and truly scared away from BTL

£490,000 1 bed flat. £1,700pm ... after service charge we get around £1,300pm, which covers the mortgage at the moment. Fixed rate mortgage that goes up in 2 years.

Bought her own flat decades ago.

And I've lived in his area for 25/26 years. When I bought my flat it was £107,000. It went down to £82,000 and the mortgage rate went from 7% to 15%. Now my flat is worth about £650,000 and I feel reasonably confident it's a good investment.

Husband went "Oh" - with a disappointed groan when heard about the Budget, but it's swing and roundabouts and long term investment.

--------------------

^ Remember this when hpcers try to instigate Breakdown 2.0 excuses (like 2008-2011) if and when prices begin to soften. Noticed it last week with a HPCer claiming "It's not buyers fault for paying £500,000 because they can't see it in real money.. if they saw it stacked up in notes they would know."

They can still know £500,000 (whether in cash notes or not), is a lot of money.  They made their BTL choice.   Didn't downsize, but doubled-down. 

Each of us has their own market view.  I respect other people, not think of them as lessors.

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Read it all before?  Great

Look above.  I did not directly reply to you, just the point you were making to others, including new members on this thread and perhaps reading.

I push back against view that 95% of people do no research with their housing decisions (especially when they are looking to buy), with house prices as they are.

Your own parents had a choice, and in 2011 they made the multiple BTL choice, in their analysis and research!!!!

Other people have their own market views, which may differ very much with yours, and my own.  It is called a market.  

1 hour ago, Fully Detached said:

Respect yourself for having made educated decisions based on your own research and analysis; that's more than about 95% of the rest of the population bother to do. Some of them will get lucky anyway. That's life, don't hate them for it

 

It's not all about you "Mr.Top 5%" who Knows The Market better than 95% of others who do no research..

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Very few people can afford to ignore the value/price of a house, whatever their age.  

It is a key factor in everyone's decisions about housing. 

I'll repeat my earlier point, in the hope that reading comprehension wasn't just a passing fad from my youth. 

We live in a market economy, of sorts. The selling point of a market economy is that selfish decisions should lead to an optimal allocation of resources. 

 

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You automatically assume I was talking about houses. I was talking in broader terms about smaller but still significant investments the OP could think about making, considering that what was asked for in the OP.

As usual I find the tone of your posts tiresome bordering on unpleasant, and I don't want to continue any sort of conversation with you. You've said what you want to say, I've read it. That's as far as we go.

 

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2 minutes ago, Venger said:

Very few people can afford to ignore the value/price of a house, whatever their age.  

It is a key factor in everyone's decisions about housing. 

I'll repeat my earlier point, in the hope that reading comprehension wasn't just a passing fad from my youth. 

We live in a market economy, of sorts. The selling point of a market economy is that selfish decisions should lead to an optimal allocation of resources. 

Selfish decisions should lead to an optimal allocation of resources? Too funny. Clearly you were unconscious throughout the years 2007-09.

99789504-adam_smith_invisible_hand_light

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It's a dismal calculation in my view, I found it was more a case of weighing up the least negative rather than the most positive.

Depends on your situation but I found the security of tenure issue, from the perspective of having an unhinged LL, a really demanding job for the main wage earner and a small child, with more to follow shortly(children not LLs), to be a difficult situation. We bought last year, although the improvement in tenure aside it is largely a PITA, not unexpectedly I might add. There is a price to pay for owning, and that's, um, owning. All the crap bits of a house are yours to keep. You'll learn new skills but some may not be of any interest, or grow old quite quickly, and it takes a long time to do much. Painting is fun for a while, but cleaning a roller for the Nth time is annoying. And this is all on the basis that you don't live in it at the same time! Nightmare. And I've been very fortunate with workmen contacts via some super neighbours too.

Dunno what to advise. I feel very lucky, in lots of ways. Can't help but feel that with proper reform, the private rental sector could be very attractive on an enduring basis. Not from the perspective of trying to get something for nothing, more that most of the mundane aspects of owning and maintaining a pile of stuff with lots of foibles is better hived off onto someone who enjoys that.

Good luck.

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So away from house prices, to any other investment... 95% do no research and analysis?

Anyway, the feeling is mutual.

 

We have disagreed on this matter many times, when it comes to those paying ever higher prices for houses (about agency) where you did me the signal honour of telling me I was being placed on ignore.  Woo-hoo.   You refuse to accept my perspective.   Doesn't mean I won't still stand by it when the subject is raised.

I will still fight that each of us are responsible for our own market decisions, and millions of people see the market differently to others, in their level of own research and analysis.    

People are the same, but infinitely varied.

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Perhaps if your plan is to police the rest of us for "text and tone" you ought to start reading our posts and responding to their actual contents, and when you don't do that and get called out, maybe your go to tactic should be humility not pompous umbrage. 

They make choices based on what they believe will give them advantage.   I choose not to pay/borrow to buy a house at these prices, and rent.  Others buy at massively higher prices than I would pay, and they have their own reasons for doing so.  The same applies to everything else in life.  People are responsible for doing their own levels of research and analysis, and actually.  

If they ever meet losses, they don't need so much by way of excuses or bailouts or compensation, but to accept their losses and allow others, better money, to enter the market at better prices.     

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Just now, zugzwang said:

Selfish decisions should lead to an optimal allocation of resources? Too funny. Clearly you were unconscious throughout the years 2007-09.

Know what you mean @zugzwang, but instead of selfish decisions being to sell houses and downsize, we've been seeing older owners go on the multiple BTL choice.

Even FD's parents, who had their own market view.  Who had their own level of research and analysis in buying 3 (THREE) BTLs in 2011.  That's viewing 3 properties and outbidding everyone else in the market, and 3 conveyances.   Then 3 rent outs.  3 houses off the market into older hands

And on that You & Yours BBC radio show, a couple who had seen value of their London apartment go up some 600%, and decide to pay near enough £500,000 for a 1 bed apartment.

As for the QE... and invisible hand, and all the other measures we have seen.... zirp, bank bailouts (and I would dare claim to say suffered, on the renter-saver side... unfair to support one part over the other part).... I agree it all looks messed up.  

I remain hopeful though, that excesses in the market will smooth out, and that banks are in a much stronger position to take a correction to house prices (and shakeout of malinvestment generally in the market).

Section 24 and everything else.  Of course the market could continue to remain at these levels, which some see as very elevated, but others in the market (under their analysis and incomes/pension/bomad) see as perfectly normal in their analyiss.   Market.

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38 minutes ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

It's a dismal calculation in my view, I found it was more a case of weighing up the least negative rather than the most positive.

Depends on your situation but I found the security of tenure issue, from the perspective of having an unhinged LL, a really demanding job for the main wage earner and a small child, with more to follow shortly(children not LLs), to be a difficult situation. We bought last year, although the improvement in tenure aside it is largely a PITA, not unexpectedly I might add. There is a price to pay for owning, and that's, um, owning. All the crap bits of a house are yours to keep. You'll learn new skills but some may not be of any interest, or grow old quite quickly, and it takes a long time to do much. Painting is fun for a while, but cleaning a roller for the Nth time is annoying. And this is all on the basis that you don't live in it at the same time! Nightmare. And I've been very fortunate with workmen contacts via some super neighbours too.

Dunno what to advise. I feel very lucky, in lots of ways. Can't help but feel that with proper reform, the private rental sector could be very attractive on an enduring basis. Not from the perspective of trying to get something for nothing, more that most of the mundane aspects of owning and maintaining a pile of stuff with lots of foibles is better hived off onto someone who enjoys that.

Good luck.

 

Owning is not so much about getting on with one's life but getting on with one's death so I would much prefer to be rich enough to rent for the rest of my life.

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I decided to buy, not because I don't believe there will be a HPC - at some point there will be, although without more supply it will be a slow burn.

No, I decided to buy because I'm almost 40 and I've had enough of the insecurity and misery of renting. The humiliation of letting agency 'inspections' every 6 months. Not knowing if I'll be in the same home in 2 months time. Being unable to paint a wall, get a dog, or hang up a picture. Not wanting to invest too much effort making the garden look nice, because...what is the point when you don't own somewhere?

There is an emotional, lifestyle, and stability-driven side to buying. It's not just a financial transaction.

Yes, housing is overpriced. But until a lot more supply comes along, we have a shortage of nice properties in areas people actually want to live. So I made the plunge recently and am buying a house in a lovely city in the South East of England. I have no intention of ever moving. The mortgage will be less than the rent. I've got a 5-year IR fix. 

And I don't particularly care if the value of the house goes down. I can pay down a lot of the mortgage over 5 years through over-payments and financially I'm going to be better off than renting. And, finally, I can get a dog, paint the walls, re-do the kitchen and bathroom in a style I want, and start living like a grown up. And I'm looking forward to it.

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The way I see it is this, for those of us who are in the 'savings trap' - a phrase I like.

Yes, over the last 17 years, and more so over the last 4 we have been completely screwed over in term of housing. Who cares?

If you're fit and healthy, anything above a years expenses in cash in that bank buys incredible peace of mind. And once youve got to 5, 10 or 20 years expenses covered, really who gives a toss if its slightly eroded - which it won't be if you've not put it all in the banking system and at least done a little diversifying You're bullet proof mentally compared to almost everyone who's chained to system....you just need to release your brain from home ownership being important.

The point is you can do anything you like with it. Nothing or anything. Buy that tesla. Buy that ducati. Go off somewhere for a year. Or just keep on eating beans and saving harder knowing it's who you are. It doesn't matter. Let go and enjoy the peace of mind of the incredible choice of life you've earned yourself.

Oh and yeah,  absolutely use your pension to the max once you've covered the easily accessible funds. It's the one revenge you have on the tax extorting barstewards.

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8 minutes ago, Kent Ambitions said:

There is an emotional, lifestyle, and stability-driven side to buying. It's not just a financial transaction.

Yes, housing is overpriced. But until a lot more supply comes along, we have a shortage of nice properties in areas people actually want to live. So I made the plunge recently and am buying a house in a lovely city in the South East of England. I have no intention of ever moving. The mortgage will be less than the rent. I've got a 5-year IR fix. 

And I don't particularly care if the value of the house goes down. I can pay down a lot of the mortgage over 5 years through over-payments and financially I'm going to be better off than renting. And, finally, I can get a dog, paint the walls, re-do the kitchen and bathroom in a style I want, and start living like a grown up. And I'm looking forward to it.

And that's the point. If the OP wants that, great. Go buy a house. No point dwelling on it.

But that sounds (more than) a bit boring to me. I'd prefer to have more options in life than hanging up paintings, diy projects and owning dogs. 

There's a great big world with a lot of things to explore. Think about what you really want out of life, and then if it's all the above, buy the house. It's individual choice. 

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1 hour ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

Dunno what to advise. I feel very lucky, in lots of ways. Can't help but feel that with proper reform, the private rental sector could be very attractive on an enduring basis. Not from the perspective of trying to get something for nothing, more that most of the mundane aspects of owning and maintaining a pile of stuff with lots of foibles is better hived off onto someone who enjoys that.

Good luck.

Except many of us have paid up for so many years to the renters, and BTLers have doubled down, at higher and higher prices in many areas, for years.

Such reforms have been way too long coming, and no sign of anything to really tilt the balance.  As I understand it, tenants in Spain have much better rights than in England. 

31 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

Owning is not so much about getting on with one's life but getting on with one's death so I would much prefer to be rich enough to rent for the rest of my life.

 

I have difficulty in processing this.

Two HPCers I really respect, both of who have suffered unfair conditions under amateur landlords, and both who went on to buy houses (and from what I gather from the general overview taking careful/balanced positions with mortgage debt vs type/price of house you both bought) now both pushing the rental scene.

Yes it would be fine if you were £loaded for nice rental place, and be very selective with making certain a good property and a good landlord.   

As it was 8itch, I seem to recall you had a ceiling for rent you could pay, you had to pay a level or rent that matched your outgoings, and I lost track of all the moves you had to make over the years as a tenant.

 

On 8/5/2014 at 0:49 PM, 8 year itch said:

For the past 2 years, I have seen people continue to be bailed out for their balls out risk-taking, mocked for my risk aversion to the extent that I was openly mocked by BTLers as a poor man from a poor family* who do not understand what it takes to become rich (and by 'what it takes to become rich' they meant buy as much property as highly leveraged as you can), seen myself priced out of a market where houses are bought for cash and then rented out the day after completion at sub 3.5% yields (these are 3% stamp duty properties too), seen people pay more in stamp duty than I paid in rent for 3 years who are now sitting on £150k+ of 'profit' and lastly have a landlord who despite buying the house I live in for under £60,000 in the late 90s contacts me to say that he needs to show a rental income of £800+pm (way above what I'm paying) so that he can re-mortgage onto a better deal. You do the math, I'd guess current value is around £240-250k but anything is possible in this market but not all early market entrants are sitting pretty and this sort of BTL activity has pushed up rental prices in the area to upwards of £1000pcm for a small family home and garden.

So you can make all the correct conclusions you like but until the day IT happens they're just idle musings. Timing will be everything and even then people will be queueing to catch a falling knife on the way down. The behaviour you and Fully Detached reference (I have said similar recently) is so ingrained into tens of millions of people, nothing other than a massacre will change the housing dyanmic and even then the potential consequences could be more extreme than we are prepared for. Not that I've got any sympathy anymore, so bring it on I say. Oh, and to further paraphrase Marx, Other People's Money is the opium of the muppets.

*spare me the life from this monstrosity.

 

On 3/9/2017 at 2:45 PM, The Knimbies who say No said:

Cheers, and apologies for missing this a few months ago. The LL is a delusional newbie, not really on board with the professional aspects of providing a service. ie don't be a interfering micromanager, and accept that your own personal expectations of certain behaviour may have no basis in the legal framework of your chosen vocation.

Their delusion also clearly extended to the idea that my wife and I were being given some sort of great deal on the rent it seems, hence the place reappeared with a £50/month hike. It remains empty, and available on Rightmove, nearly 100 days after our contract ran out.

They should clearly sell it, but for whatever reason that would be crazy. 5% gross yield on the rental approximately, nuts. There's just no telling some people though.

 

You both surely have the option to back to renting?  

I haven't endured all this (HPI+++++++ and BTLers and mad-gainz believers making the market their reality) to rent-forever from BTLers.  

Renting reform has been way too long coming, and it's way off any standard that I would require for the long term.   

Massacre the BTLers (financially).  S24.

Homeownership is better for general society than societally destructive housing financilalstion.  Positions of BTLers need to be unwound by the market, and give younger people an opportunity.  

Productive people should have opportunity to get something for their money, other than rent from BTLers.   Maybe some corporate rentals are good but it has to be proven, and even then, requires far stronger rights for tenants than what is in place now.

If renting is so good, then why are all millions of older people, and many 'what it is worth' homeowners, not renting.   It can't be one position just for younger people.  "Renting is good enough for you, but homeownership for me."

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26 minutes ago, Kent Ambitions said:

I decided to buy, not because I don't believe there will be a HPC - at some point there will be, although without more supply it will be a slow burn.

No, I decided to buy because I'm almost 40 and I've had enough of the insecurity and misery of renting. The humiliation of letting agency 'inspections' every 6 months. Not knowing if I'll be in the same home in 2 months time. Being unable to paint a wall, get a dog, or hang up a picture. Not wanting to invest too much effort making the garden look nice, because...what is the point when you don't own somewhere?

There is an emotional, lifestyle, and stability-driven side to buying. It's not just a financial transaction.

Yes, housing is overpriced. But until a lot more supply comes along, we have a shortage of nice properties in areas people actually want to live. So I made the plunge recently and am buying a house in a lovely city in the South East of England. I have no intention of ever moving. The mortgage will be less than the rent. I've got a 5-year IR fix. 

And I don't particularly care if the value of the house goes down. I can pay down a lot of the mortgage over 5 years through over-payments and financially I'm going to be better off than renting. And, finally, I can get a dog, paint the walls, re-do the kitchen and bathroom in a style I want, and start living like a grown up. And I'm looking forward to it.

 

I understand all those challenges on the renting, but still prefer to suffer that, than buy at these prices in my area.  That's my market choice.  It is a financial transaction.  For me buying is a promise to repay big sums of debt, at these prices levels, in my general area.  And an area where there has been years of high BTL activity buying up homes at painfully high prices (from my point of view in the market).

It's a choice. 

You have made yours and have your own view of the market going forward, still seeing it as one where lack of supply will be an issue for anyone expecting any better value, in places people actually want to live.

House prices run on money.

Market. 

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Owning is not so much about getting on with one's life but getting on with one's death so I would much prefer to be rich enough to rent for the rest of my life.

 

29 minutes ago, Bland Unsight said:

Truth.

 

 

I have no idea what you full personal circumstances are Bland Unsight, but can you understand why others prefer homeownership?

Getting served S21s... two months notice (as you may have experience of) because landlord is selling up and wants vacant possession, is more of a hassle for other people.  

Kids made bonds of friendship in the area, happy at local schools, and settling into local area.  

Neighbourhood / local community (although in many areas renting is good when that side of things is not very good, yet for me a lot of the troubles stem directly from housing financialisation in many areas and extreme BTLism of others... hello x 3).

Not being able to do exactly as you please, with landlord/agent always in the background.  You're far less in control of your own circumstances, in many ways.

However many endure renting now, under all of those circumstances, because they refuse to pay these prices that sellers are looking for, in a heated market.

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37 minutes ago, Venger said:

I have no idea what you full personal circumstances are Bland Unsight, but can you understand why others prefer homeownership?

Getting served S21s... two months notice (as you may have experience of) because landlord is selling up and wants vacant possession, is more of a hassle for other people.  

Kids made bonds of friendship in the area, happy at local schools, and settling into local area.  

Neighbourhood / local community (although in many areas renting is good when that side of things is not very good, yet for me a lot of the troubles stem directly from housing financialisation in many areas and extreme BTLism of others... hello x 3).

Not being able to do exactly as you please, with landlord/agent always in the background.  You're far less in control of your own circumstances, in many ways.

However many endure renting now, under all of those circumstances, because they refuse to pay these prices that sellers are looking for, in a heated market.

I think that there's some detail here, so I'll bore you with my take on it.

First up the standard joke about the American tourist asking directions from the Irish farmer applies "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". People have to make decisions on the basis of how things actually are and how they look to be progressing.

If you asked me to take a view on renting versus owning given the rights that tenants in England enjoy then I would agree with you that there is a serious problem. If you want to enjoy security of tenure renting is a clusterf**k.

As a result of this reality there is an attraction to becoming an owner-occupier and doubtless this is a big part of why the overwhelming majority of people wish to become owner-occupiers.

Further, given the way that monetary policy, fiscal policy and planning policy has lined up for the previous forty years, being an owner-occupier is a gravy train and one ought to get on.

Now both of these matters are not some necessary part of reality. They are contingent. They are the result of political choices. Things are changing. This will continue to change. Also - and this is a big deal for me - I feel very strongly that both of these 'realities' are massively non-optimal in terms of fostering a stable and prosperous society.

The reason that I responded to 8YI's post in the way that I did is that big picture I have no desire to manage a pile of bricks.

For me, if the market really worked I would be able to chose between renting and buying on the basis of what I needed and wanted and not on the basis of whether I thought that the banks' ability to grift off mug punters would sustain for the rest of my economic life.

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1 hour ago, Venger said:

I have no idea what you full personal circumstances are Bland Unsight, but can you understand why others prefer homeownership?

I feel very strongly that if people wish to own then to the greatest possible degree, as far down the asset wealth and income deciles as possible, they ought to be able to own and that they ought to be able to buy the best possible housing at the lowest possible price.

I can't see anything stopping home-ownership other than landowners wanting to get as much as possible for the land they have and existing owner-occupiers wishing to enjoy capital gains as a result of constrained supply.

A big tell for me that the tenure bias result from our batshit mental housing market was being fixed would be people wanting to rent. I see no evidence of that. I see shed loads of evidence that our batshit mental housing market is a mad as ever - scratch that - madder than ever - 40% equity loans under London Help To Buy - WTF?

Good housing, at low prices with people able to choose the tenure they prefer. End of.

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2 hours ago, Venger said:

 

Except many of us have paid up for so many years to the renters, and BTLers have doubled down, at higher and higher prices in many areas, for years.

Such reforms have been way too long coming, and no sign of anything to really tilt the balance.  As I understand it, tenants in Spain have much better rights than in England. 

 

I have difficulty in processing this.

Two HPCers I really respect, both of who have suffered unfair conditions under amateur landlords, and both who went on to buy houses (and from what I gather from the general overview taking careful/balanced positions with mortgage debt vs type/price of house you both bought) now both pushing the rental scene.

Yes it would be fine if you were £loaded for nice rental place, and be very selective with making certain a good property and a good landlord.   

As it was 8itch, I seem to recall you had a ceiling for rent you could pay, you had to pay a level or rent that matched your outgoings, and I lost track of all the moves you had to make over the years as a tenant.

 

 

 

You both surely have the option to back to renting?  

I haven't endured all this (HPI+++++++ and BTLers and mad-gainz believers making the market their reality) to rent-forever from BTLers.  

Renting reform has been way too long coming, and it's way off any standard that I would require for the long term.   

Massacre the BTLers (financially).  S24.

Homeownership is better for general society than societally destructive housing financilalstion.  Positions of BTLers need to be unwound by the market, and give younger people an opportunity.  

Productive people should have opportunity to get something for their money, other than rent from BTLers.   Maybe some corporate rentals are good but it has to be proven, and even then, requires far stronger rights for tenants than what is in place now.

If renting is so good, then why are all millions of older people, and many 'what it is worth' homeowners, not renting.   It can't be one position just for younger people.  "Renting is good enough for you, but homeownership for me."

Yo!

Not pushing the rental scene as it is today, far from it. I was more, I guess badly, saying that I doubt I'd have considered buying recently if eg the rental reform I want, (and continue to press for) was in place. I was bitterly disappointed by the recent white paper on housing, kicking rental reform into the long grass, more or less. Give people who are enduring security of tenure issues a welcome respite and aside from bettering PRS lives immediately, the reduction in buying pressure may have a welcome effect on prices. Give renters the stable base from which they can face down sellers, safe in the knowledge that they won't be turfed out during the process if it doesn't work out, seems like a good idea. I don't regard renting as 'good enough' for other people at present. It's not at all.

I'm not trying to put myself up as St Al of Wirral but the simple fact of the matter is that I regard housing as the most important policy area for Governments of any stripe.

PS One of the larger bills I have to deal with at present is a replacement wall which separates my gaff from a neighbouring house which is split into a couple of flats and rented out. The property owner, who owns both flats, is adamant that they want the cheapest rebuild possible, with no mention or consultation of their tenants wishes. I thought, sod that and have asked the tenants what they want and have aligned my own wishes with theirs. I pay half anyway but I'm happy to do it. Of course, the way the UK works, the LL will scoop any perceived improvement when they sell, but fook em, I'm not in a race to the bottom and the tenants are are very nice people to boot. Young, friendly, capable, ambitious. I (almost) remember when I had potential.

 

Bedtime!

Edited by The Knimbies who say No
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5 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

I think that there's some detail here, so I'll bore you with my take on it.

First up the standard joke about the American tourist asking directions from the Irish farmer applies "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". People have to make decisions on the basis of how things actually are and how they look to be progressing.

:)

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I love the joke of the person asking the way and being told, ‘If I wanted to get there, I wouldn’t start from here!’ Well, you do start from here, so be certain where here is and don’t fool yourself into thinking you are somewhere else .

-Geoff Burch

 

http://www.milwaukee-business-lawyer.com/my-favorite-lawyerclient-joke/

We each take our own bearings of the house price situation and make decisions (agreed)

... yet we all have different views to what the future holds (how things look to be progressing) and of reality.  Including what politicians 'will' and 'will not' allow.

 

 

Can't help but notice that Peppa and George share 1 bedroom, at Mummy and Daddy's house.  

Bunk-bed.

Never seen any episodes about any landlord or having to pack up to move to a new house rental.  Daddy works, and seen the Mummy be distracted when 'working' at her computer.

Plenty of episodes showing Gran and Granddad's house, and around the back they have shed full of old belongings, workshop, and a big back garden, big trees, where they have plenty of space for vegetable  patch growing. 

 

5 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

...If you asked me to take a view on renting versus owning given the rights that tenants in England enjoy then I would agree with you that there is a serious problem. If you want to enjoy security of tenure renting is a clusterf**k.

As a result of this reality there is an attraction to becoming an owner-occupier and doubtless this is a big part of why the overwhelming majority of people wish to become owner-occupiers.

Further, given the way that monetary policy, fiscal policy and planning policy has lined up for the previous forty years, being an owner-occupier is a gravy train and one ought to get on.

Now both of these matters are not some necessary part of reality. They are contingent. They are the result of political choices. Things are changing. This will continue to change. Also - and this is a big deal for me - I feel very strongly that both of these 'realities' are massively non-optimal in terms of fostering a stable and prosperous society.

The reason that I responded to 8YI's post in the way that I did is that big picture I have no desire to manage a pile of bricks.

For me, if the market really worked I would be able to chose between renting and buying on the basis of what I needed and wanted and not on the basis of whether I thought that the banks' ability to grift off mug punters would sustain for the rest of my economic life.

 

*Nodding in agreement* with your main theme here.

There appear to be a couple of contradictions within your two posts, or where I am still confused.  

At the moment, and for many years gone by, in so many areas, the owner-occupier has proven to be a great/stable family housing choice (and for many giving high net value asset worth from much higher values).   40 years seems big part of reality as it actually is, with these house prices in many areas.

You also acknowledge madder-than-ever situation (pointing to London HTB) - although I still hold a hope that's just a final measure to draw in more speculator moeny. 

It is yet to be proven if buyers of recent years (or even tomorrow) are the 'mug punters' on the buying side.  Outbid for years, and only seen prices rocket higher in my area, year upon year.   (<adder than ever values in many areas), although against that we have had a lot of BTL double down.  Someone I know bought in 2011, and now valued at some £300K more, going from recent sales on same road.  That is buyers paying higher prices because they have their own view on what future holds and how market will progress.  Another couple trying to flip their 2014 house for £120K more than they paid (I thought that they had pay top whack).

Of course, "both the realities are massively non-optimal in terms of fostering a stable and prosperous society."   Fully agree.   I never expected BTL and house price celebration to become as much of a main feature of the market as it has become in so many areas.   To be allowed to continue as it has, for so long.  And to be so welcomed by many in society.   I sense this is really really important to you.  A stable and prosperous society / housing fairness.  It's just my view, to get there, there will have to be a forceful hard shakeout, and many a VI will resist and complain about unfairness.  You also recognise that many on the owner side are very keen to max/protect their capital gain HPI.

Let's hope things are changing for the better.  (Political). BTL of the last 15 odd years, bidding against those who would have ordinarily bought houses.  Or CTL and upsize/buy again.   That has really been a really destructive financial housing policy for younger people.   3-11+ houses.... amateur landlords/ investors, mostly lacking in the view of tenants rights, and many with little respect for tenant needs.  

For it to happen that way they need to let down a lot of vested interests, unless the market itself also overwhelms any political tweaks (S24) to balance a few things out.

5 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

I feel very strongly that if people wish to own then to the greatest possible degree, as far down the asset wealth and income deciles as possible, they ought to be able to own and that they ought to be able to buy the best possible housing at the lowest possible price.

I can't see anything stopping home-ownership other than landowners wanting to get as much as possible for the land they have and existing owner-occupiers wishing to enjoy capital gains as a result of constrained supply.

A big tell for me that the tenure bias result from our batshit mental housing market was being fixed would be people wanting to rent. I see no evidence of that. I see shed loads of evidence that our batshit mental housing market is a mad as ever - scratch that - madder than ever - 40% equity loans under London Help To Buy - WTF?

So do I, but they have been paying the prices they think are best for them with their deposit/bomad/mortgage in principle offer.  

Were it up to me housing would be free (Culture Sci-Fi style, with leaps in technology), and that is still something I will hope for if I do ever buy. I still expect a lot of resistance and less likely to reach a decisively fair housing situation in any near term future.   I can hope for advancement (BTLers taken out) but there has been big gaps in haves-and-have-mores and have-less with housing.  Some of that is to be expected.  Someone who works should be in a better position (for housing choices) than someone who does not.

Can't recall my parents having any major issues in maintaining the house they bought in the mid 80s for some £38K (which now sell for over £400K - although theirs was sold long ago).   Mother got her way with wallpaper, the carpets, and father wasn't allowed any of his framed map paintings on the walls.  They bought a well-built house from a an older couple, where their own (adult) offspring had moved out, who had divorced.  

Don't know if my Granddad bought before the war or after the war, but they enjoyed homeownership (tiny kitchen, but great garden they grew vegetables in) and my mother remained best pals with many girls from that neighbourhood into her 70s.   They had the house into the war, but they might have been renting it at that point.

*Managing a pile of bricks * does seem to be an overly bleak way of projecting main part of homeownership.   If you buy right you are able to set out the home as you want it, with all the touches you want.  To truly make it home.   No agent or landlord with a key or inspections, or risk S21.  And all the other advantages if you buy in the area that you truly want to settle in.  (Kids-friends /community/friendships).

Maybe if some more recent buyers have bought housing that required significant improvement works after purchasing, they might be feeling a bit jaded about homeownership (?) but I am sure that will pass.

Edited by Venger
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