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Mikhail Liebenstein

T-Levels - what a stupid name

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You may have heard of T-Levels (T for Technical) being announced in the budget. As far as I can tell the Government thinks these can put what I guess may have been an NVQ on some sort of par with A-Levels.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/13/parental-snootiness-practical-courses-must-shelved-t-levels/

Trouble is, I have already heard these being referred to as Thick-Levels. Probably accurate as I expect most of these to be delivered by local further education colleges. Certainly round my way the local college was where you went if you weren't the brightest tool in the box and perhaps had to do some GCSE retakes.

I'd personally scrap colleges which are generally rubbish and deliver out of date courses, and perhaps try to get more students into real work with real training schemes.

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The fall of FE college, from profiting vocational based training in the 60-80s, to nothing more than a a couple of GCSE resit centre is shocking.

All FE should b e closed. Everyone sacked. Then a rethink of what you want to do.

All the FE college I track are terrible for the majority of kids that attend. Useless.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

The fall of FE college, from profiting vocational based training in the 60-80s, to nothing more than a a couple of GCSE resit centre is shocking.

All FE should b e closed. Everyone sacked. Then a rethink of what you want to do.

All the FE college I track are terrible for the majority of kids that attend. Useless.

 

I used to love going to college in the evenings a couple of times a week back in the 90's. The amount of good quality FE courses in lots of subjects was amazing! The blame has been put on the internet, but to be honest, you don't get the same quality or value! I checked out a local college last autumn, I was looking at a professional course, it was meant to be a Level 5 Diploma but they were only running it as a Level 5 Certificate, and not only that but where running the course below the minimum class contact hours allowed! I did a big of digging and discovered this particular college had in the past failed it's Ofsted inspection although it had improved.

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What concerns me is that the T levels will be closer to the GNVQs than the Apprenticeships that they need to be. I was uncomfortable in my own teaching as there was immense pressure on assessment of GNVQ which simply became a box ticking assessment procedure of "seen once skills". Having demonstrated any particular assessment criteria once a student assessed as competent in that aspect despite the fact that in the majority of cases students had little understanding and would be unable to replicate the same skill in any other context or after a day or so as the skill would then be forgotten.

To take this further, for the least able, teachers were pressurised to spoon feed, step by step, through the procedures needed to complete the necessary criteria. It went beyond acceptable teaching to cheating in my eyes.I could not bring myself to do this and was sanctioned because of it.

The pay off is that there then a bunch of high attaining GNVQ students (high grades equivalent to 4 GCSEs), who then expected to be allowed to take A levels, which they were then nowhere near close to being able to cope with. Transfer this from GNVQ tech equivalent of GCSE to T levels being tech equivalent of A levels and we will have imcompetents set loose in the world of work. The consequences are frightening.

 

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Aw come on with the poor quality of FE colleges.

i agree in part. They were once very good institutions, teaching high quality technical education to supplement the hands on learning that apprenticeship offered.  They also had good quality adult ed recreational courses where you could learn a good variety of practical skills very cheaply.

as ever, it has been ruined by politicians and sacrificed to the twin gods of political correctness and the inability to see the worth and value in any activity. 

The rot set in in the early nineties. Since then college budgets have been squeezed, colleges have been expected to widen what they offer to the point where there is little specialisation. Whenever there is a youth problem to solve, FE colleges are put on the front line in solving it.  Lack of English and maths? Colleges will sort out the mess of poor schooling.  No work for young people? Stick em on a course at the local tech.  Can't afford to provide full time courses? Oh well, let's get the colleges to teach for 12 hours and call it a full time course.

someone upthread mentioned NVQs. That stands for not very qualified. 

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7 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Aw come on with the poor quality of FE colleges.

i agree in part. They were once very good institutions, teaching high quality technical education to supplement the hands on learning that apprenticeship offered.  They also had good quality adult ed recreational courses where you could learn a good variety of practical skills very cheaply.

as ever, it has been ruined by politicians and sacrificed to the twin gods of political correctness and the inability to see the worth and value in any activity. 

The rot set in in the early nineties. Since then college budgets have been squeezed, colleges have been expected to widen what they offer to the point where there is little specialisation. Whenever there is a youth problem to solve, FE colleges are put on the front line in solving it.  Lack of English and maths? Colleges will sort out the mess of poor schooling.  No work for young people? Stick em on a course at the local tech.  Can't afford to provide full time courses? Oh well, let's get the colleges to teach for 12 hours and call it a full time course.

someone upthread mentioned NVQs. That stands for not very qualified. 

My partner did an NVQ a few years ago - all part of the school's CPD blurb.

NVQ leve l3 - equivalent to an A level.

No it wasn't, not by a long shot. It was about half the the content on an easy GCSE.

FE did used to be great esp. night schools for technical or patching up A levels i.e. A levels maths.

Now I struggle to find any night school overing either.

Here's the local FE college:

http://www.yorkshirecoastcollege.ac.uk/adult-offer.php

Adult courses into 2 groups -childcare + community learning.

Not a single useful, academic course listed.

' Certificate in Understanding Dignity and Safeguarding in Adult Health and Social Care (QCF) '

?

The tech still offers a few construction courses, thank god. There was talk about those being scrapped when it became a University....

The catering department is still highly rated.

The rest falls into 'keep busy' stuff who did not do well at school.

FE courses should be made to offer a core set of GCSE and A levels - Maths English Sciences.

 

 

 

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To stop the FE sector drifting further into irrelevance, there needs to be some sort of rule:

50% of students starting a relevant job after 2 years of leaving FE.

 

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38 minutes ago, spyguy said:

My partner did an NVQ a few years ago - all part of the school's CPD blurb.

NVQ leve l3 - equivalent to an A level.

No it wasn't, not by a long shot. It was about half the the content on an easy GCSE.

FE did used to be great esp. night schools for technical or patching up A levels i.e. A levels maths.

Now I struggle to find any night school overing either.

Here's the local FE college:

http://www.yorkshirecoastcollege.ac.uk/adult-offer.php

Adult courses into 2 groups -childcare + community learning.

Not a single useful, academic course listed.

' Certificate in Understanding Dignity and Safeguarding in Adult Health and Social Care (QCF) '

?

The tech still offers a few construction courses, thank god. There was talk about those being scrapped when it became a University....

The catering department is still highly rated.

The rest falls into 'keep busy' stuff who did not do well at school.

FE courses should be made to offer a core set of GCSE and A levels - Maths English Sciences.

 

 

 

Yep.  I don't know where to start so will pick a couple of issues:

no useful course listed.  Yep, it is all pc twaddle apart from one or two gems in each college

night school.  Now called adult education.  Starved of funding and what is left is pc twaddle.  Try and find a course that will actually teach you something useful and you will sadly fail.  In my lowest moments, I almost believe that this is deliberate so that we, as a population, become useless at supporting ourselves in any way.

re your other post, ideally yes, technical education should lead to a job.  The fly in the ointment is that for far too long it has been used to hide the massive youth unemployment. They could not make this a condition for funding or it would blow the lid off the whole mess that is our economy 

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I actually did 3 A levels in a year, by attending evening classes, at the local FE college. I seem to remember it being reasonably cheap. Maths, Physics, and Chemistry BTW. I didn't want to do pottery, although I could see this might have amusing messy results.:o

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51 minutes ago, MrPin said:

I actually did 3 A levels in a year, by attending evening classes, at the local FE college. I seem to remember it being reasonably cheap. Maths, Physics, and Chemistry BTW. I didn't want to do pottery, although I could see this might have amusing messy results.:o

You would be looking at something in the region of £1000 per A level these days - it is completely not subsidised for mature students (over 19) so you would have to bear the full cost :wacko:

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I suspect the internet has led to a drop in demand for night-school courses. Eg, I've taught myself quite a lot of bicycle maintenance just by watching Youtube videos (over and over again and pausing a lot). In the past I would probably have looked for a night class on this. 

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35 minutes ago, One-percent said:

You would be looking at something in the region of £1000 per A level these days - it is completely not subsidised for mature students (over 19) so you would have to bear the full cost :wacko:

You are right there Mr 0.01. I don't think I was ever a mature student. Stuff was subsidised very nicely, and you would be daft not to take up the opportunities, but nowadays this does not exist. Why?

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2 hours ago, MrPin said:

I actually did 3 A levels in a year, by attending evening classes, at the local FE college. I seem to remember it being reasonably cheap. Maths, Physics, and Chemistry BTW. I didn't want to do pottery, although I could see this might have amusing messy results.:o

Same here, Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Electronics and Economics. The local FE in Bournemouth/Poole was the only choice for A levels if you didn't go to the Grammar school. They still do A levels and even some degree subjects.

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4 minutes ago, davidg said:

Same here, Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Electronics and Economics. The local FE in Bournemouth/Poole was the only choice for A levels if you didn't go to the Grammar school. They still do A levels and even some degree subjects.

You sound like a bright bugger!:o Even if you are French! Still they were good at the maths. Once

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1 hour ago, Austin Allegro said:

I suspect the internet has led to a drop in demand for night-school courses. Eg, I've taught myself quite a lot of bicycle maintenance just by watching Youtube videos (over and over again and pausing a lot). In the past I would probably have looked for a night class on this. 

There are a lot of practical courses that you could not do over the Internet.  Sadly it is not demand driven but an issue of funding.

this place, the HGSI was afaik, the last place in London to offer what I would class as proper adult ed.. sadly lost due to funding cuts.

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/liquidation_threat_at_the_institute_in_hampstead_garden_suburb_1_4490223

58 minutes ago, MrPin said:

You are right there Mr 0.01. I don't think I was ever a mature student. Stuff was subsidised very nicely, and you would be daft not to take up the opportunities, but nowadays this does not exist. Why?

It seems that government would rather prioritise paying benefits than educating the masses.

In my less sane moments, I wonder whether government does not want the populace to be educated. Now, that begs the question why?

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1 hour ago, One-percent said:

There are a lot of practical courses that you could not do over the Internet.  Sadly it is not demand driven but an issue of funding.

this place, the HGSI was afaik, the last place in London to offer what I would class as proper adult ed.. sadly lost due to funding cuts.

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/liquidation_threat_at_the_institute_in_hampstead_garden_suburb_1_4490223

It seems that government would rather prioritise paying benefits than educating the masses.

In my less sane moments, I wonder whether government does not want the populace to be educated. Now, that begs the question why?

Join my future Government We already have XYY pinned as minister of culture, and BossyBabe as First Sea Lord (Lady?)

There is more wisdom here than you can vote for!

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54 minutes ago, MrPin said:

Join my future Government We already have XYY pinned as minister of culture, and BossyBabe as First Sea Lord (Lady?)

There is more wisdom here than you can vote for!

What would be my portfolio mr pin and would it come with a very large polished mahogany desk and lots of minions to do my bidding?

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1 minute ago, One-percent said:

What would be my portfolio mr pin and would it come with a very large polished mahogany desk and lots of minions to do my bidding?

Yes, and a black bakelite telephone. And your own stapler!

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56 minutes ago, MrPin said:

Yes, and a black bakelite telephone. And your own stapler!

Almost swayed. Now, if you could stretch to a filing cabinet full of gin, I'm in 

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19 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Almost swayed. Now, if you could stretch to a filing cabinet full of gin, I'm in 

Pinny's too tight for that.

The only gin you'll ever find in that cabinet will be friggin' oxy-"gin"...!

And that'll be on a coin-meter....

;)

 

XYY

                                                                                                               

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

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2 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

Pinny's too tight for that.

The only gin you'll ever find in that cabinet will be friggin' oxy-"gin"...!

And that'll be on a coin-meter....

;)

 

XYY

 

                                                                                                               

 

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

 

I don't believe our beloved (almost) leader would be so tight.  If he wishes to appoint the best to his new cabinet, then he would need to pay the going rate as such is the way for all of the upper echelons.  My payment is gin.  

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