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Fairyland

A techie above 35? You are most likely to be fired

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This was brought to my attention by someone I know. 

The Economic Times: A techie above 35? You are most likely to be fired

Quote

NEW DELHI: All over the world, jobs in the information technology (IT) sector are under threat due to increasing automation and new digital technologies. But these challenges become bigger for India as Indian IT companies find it hard to re-train staff.  

Recently, industry body Nasscom said there was a need to re-train up to 1.5 million workers, nearly half of its sectoral workforce.  

Quote

Roles in IT companies that were typically assigned to employees with over 10 years of experience — the middle-level bracket — are now going to machines. For example, Capgemini is using IBM's cognitive consulting tool Watson to assign people to projects, while Infosys is building a machine-learning platform that will help project managers take decisions to make better trade-offs between the number of people needed for a project and the timeline for completion.  

The person I know says that corporations can hire freshers for 1/3rd salary of existing employees so it is more of cost cutting than retraining.

Don't know if this will spread worldwide. Demand/Supply right?

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Define techie.

Most of Indians are just computer operators.

Very short half life these days.

Different story for developers esp. system/embedded.

 

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Id also add that people are runnign away from Indian outsourcing.

This is the first incident to bubble up:

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/03/bbc-probe-claims-talktalk-call-centre-scam-involved-hundreds-staff.html

Anyone company who has outsourced sensitive info to India ought to be sh1tting themselves.

All the money they claim to have saved - and they've not - is going to come back at 100 x fines.

 

 

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No surprise to me.  People say "get into IT! Everything's being automated! Ergo, being in IT means you're going to be building these automated systems!".   The thing is, IT-based jobs are ripe themselves for automation.  Programming is about efficiency.  It is designed to template and framework everything it touches.  Programmers are being replaced by code.  Why take on a programmer to write bespoke code when a niche template does 95% of what you ask for, and you can hire a programmer to do that last 5%? There's always pushback by other programmers on this point I make ("just specialise!").  Sure, you can specialise - but eventually your niche is subject to some other company's superior codebase/framework/template and that becomes the de facto "go to" solution. This isn't even taking into account the higher-level developers who use frameworks.  They have no chance - they are fighting against lower barriers to entry creating an over-supply to the demand.  Not only that, but these types of roles are most certainly going to be replaced by out-and-out automation in the future. Many IT roles are nothing but glorfied data entry/admin jobs.  These will (are!) the first to be wiped out by automation.

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This is not about any country as such. In my experience, there are all types of people everywhere. There are the 1% and the 99% globally and they are very similar no matter which country they belong to. This is about automation.

Canbuywontbuy, you have nailed it very well. Yes, 95% of the work is replaced by templates and frameworks and for remaining 5% why hire someone experienced? a fresher out of college is likely to have better skills to do the reaming skills than a 10-15years experienced IT person. Very soon corporations will realise that student interns out there to prove their worth will do this job at a fraction of the cost. Why hire an experienced person? We live in an agile world after all. 

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57 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Define techie.

Most of Indians are just computer operators.

Very short half life these days.

Different story for developers esp. system/embedded.

 

Really, I thought they had practically died out 20 years ago. 

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I started working in IT 35ish years ago and at the time was warned it all be automated in the next 5-10 years.

However its still going strong with lots of good developer jobs around. If you are worried about job security you could look at this

50 Senior Developer posts at up to £75k plus civil service pension/benefits, worth another £25k.

 https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/index.cgi?SID=cGFnZWFjdGlvbj12aWV3dmFjYnlqb2JsaXN0JnNlYXJjaF9zbGljZV9jdXJyZW50PTEmam9ibGlzdF92aWV3X3ZhYz0xNTI2NjE0Jm93bmVyPTUwNzAwMDAmY3NvdXJjZT1jc3FzZWFyY2gmcGFnZWNsYXNzPUpvYnMmdXNlcnNlYXJjaGNvbnRleHQ9MzQyNTYwOTgmb3duZXJ0eXBlPWZhaXImcmVxc2lnPTE0ODg4ODIxNTctMDgxNjcxNzZhNDBlYzNlNzNlODgxMmZiYmUyNDZiMzQzZWU5ZjQ5Mw==

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IT will be automated out of existence. I quit the sector 4 years ago because with the cloud and frameworks and systems being so much more reliable the only jobs left will be system janitors.

Plus you always have to update skills, and those are the same skills all those university graduates come with, and none of the redundant crap filling up their minds.

They teach programming to my 7 year old niece at school!

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32 minutes ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

Look at websites. Ten years ago, I had to hire a developer to build an ecommerce site on ruby on rails from the ground up. Now I would just open a shopify site and pay a freelancer for some small customisation. 

Bad example.

Websites at their simplest are nothing more than word processing. Just have some static, HTML in a framework and you are done.

When it comes to running a high transaction, high availability system - think of a distributed application with just a HTML front end, then you are in a very different place.

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3 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

IT will be automated out of existence. I quit the sector 4 years ago because with the cloud and frameworks and systems being so much more reliable the only jobs left will be system janitors.

Plus you always have to update skills, and those are the same skills all those university graduates come with, and none of the redundant crap filling up their minds.

Id dont Uni grads leave Uni with a current skillset.

The cloud and the like just pushed some of the complexity elsewhere.

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1 minute ago, spyguy said:

Bad example.

Websites at their simplest are nothing more than word processing. Just have some static, HTML in a framework and you are done.

When it comes to running a high transaction, high availability system - think of a distributed application with just a HTML front end, then you are in a very different place.

Websites are one of the best examples. Wordpress, drupal, concrete 5 etc. All frameworks that let plebs build decent sites with practically no skill, rather than hiring a dreamweaver professional.

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I'm glad others are seeing this - I thought I was going mad arguing the case a few years ago about IT jobs being especially susceptible to automation.  Just like any industry, there will always be specialist roles, but I just see the vast majority of IT roles being replaced by lines of code.

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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Id dont Uni grads leave Uni with a current skillset.

The cloud and the like just pushed some of the complexity elsewhere.

The cloud means 1000's of webservers, mail servers etc being administered by a handful of people. It will encompass everything it can in the end, economies of scale will ensure that.

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I graduated in Comp Sci. in '89, been through C/C++ under Unix, VB, Asp. Still developing (C#, MVC, SQL etc.).

Have a few years left I think, don't make 75K though.

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11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I started working in IT 35ish years ago and at the time was warned it all be automated in the next 5-10 years.

However its still going strong with lots of good developer jobs around. If you are worried about job security you could look at this

50 Senior Developer posts at up to £75k plus civil service pension/benefits, worth another £25k.

 https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/index.cgi?SID=cGFnZWFjdGlvbj12aWV3dmFjYnlqb2JsaXN0JnNlYXJjaF9zbGljZV9jdXJyZW50PTEmam9ibGlzdF92aWV3X3ZhYz0xNTI2NjE0Jm93bmVyPTUwNzAwMDAmY3NvdXJjZT1jc3FzZWFyY2gmcGFnZWNsYXNzPUpvYnMmdXNlcnNlYXJjaGNvbnRleHQ9MzQyNTYwOTgmb3duZXJ0eXBlPWZhaXImcmVxc2lnPTE0ODg4ODIxNTctMDgxNjcxNzZhNDBlYzNlNzNlODgxMmZiYmUyNDZiMzQzZWU5ZjQ5Mw==

Plus being located in Blackpool or Leeds with housing costs 1/4 ?? of London makes that salary worth a lot more.

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Ridiculous story. Any IT person with 10 years experience who is getting replaced by a graduate is either useless or else is doing an entry level job to start with. 

As someone who works in a very large company with a big IT presence, we are under a lot of pressure to cut IT cost, to automate process, to reduce the amount of vendor tools, cut replication, move to cloud, etc. This has been bad news for people who are involved with maintaining physical infrastructure, or managing such environments. It has been bad for QA people who are doing manual processes. On the other hand, it has been great news for developers, or QA people who are very technical. Between all the old crap that needs to be re-written and all the new projects that will need to be spun up, there is years and years of work in the pipeline. 

I do not know what things will be like in 30 years, if you are even just competent at IT, then you have a great career ahead of you.

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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Bad example.

Websites at their simplest are nothing more than word processing. Just have some static, HTML in a framework and you are done.

When it comes to running a high transaction, high availability system - think of a distributed application with just a HTML front end, then you are in a very different place.

The more complex a system, the more likely it is to be frameworked/templated.  This is why e-commerce is especially swamped with templated solutions.  It would take decades of developer years to build something like Magento from scratch (which is more than "static HTML"). 

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1 minute ago, honkydonkey said:

Websites are one of the best examples. Wordpress, drupal, concrete 5 etc. All frameworks that let plebs build decent sites with practically no skill, rather than hiring a dreamweaver professional.

Again, you are just talking about layout and static pages. HTML is just a markup/frontend.

HTML is really really not that much of issue - other than its a crap formatting/layout spec.

You need to look at HA large scale system where you are replicating databases across systems and handling large, burstey loads.

Look a the QCON betting or trading platforms.

https://www.infoq.com/presentations/bet365

 

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3 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said:

The more complex a system, the more likely it is to be frameworked/templated.  This is why e-commerce is especially swamped with templated solutions.  It would take decades of developer years to build something like Magento from scratch (which is more than "static HTML"). 

Argghhh ..... the front end/templating is a tiny tiny tiny part of mots large systems.

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19 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Again, you are just talking about layout and static pages. HTML is just a markup/frontend.

HTML is really really not that much of issue - other than its a crap formatting/layout spec.

You need to look at HA large scale system where you are replicating databases across systems and handling large, burstey loads.

Look a the QCON betting or trading platforms.

https://www.infoq.com/presentations/bet365

 

You are aware that 99+% of websites are database-driven, content management systems, right? HTML is just the bit that's delivered in the browser - a lot goes on before that happens. 

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6 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Argghhh ..... the front end/templating is a tiny tiny tiny part of mots large systems.

People's perception of what automation is, versus what it's actually doing is out of kilter with reality.

As someone who works in a large company with a big IT presence, here's is an example of what we understand by automation.

1. Instead of having a couple of monkey's doing production support actively monitoring application logs, we might use a tool that would monitor said logs, then simply page out to a support person in the event of a problem. 

2. Instead of having a dedicated person that would handle a release management phase, environment configuration and checking, we might write a script that would spin up a new environment and use a continuous integration process to generate a code artifact and push it to the appropriate environment without any human intervention. 

3. Instead of having a few other monkey's doing manual testing of the application, you would write scripts and write a test harness that would run through a full suite of tests.

In the modern IT world, that is the current reality of what automation means. Other than PR puff pieces, at no stage have I ever heard of some sort of magical automation tool that can make developers obsolete. Rather, automation is taking the sort of low-tech infrastructure/testing work out of the hands of humans.

In my opinion, the future for competent IT people (they don't even have to be world beaters) is excellent. 

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1 minute ago, NuBrit said:

People's perception of what automation is, versus what it's actually doing is out of kilter with reality.

As someone who works in a large company with a big IT presence, here's is an example of what we understand by automation.

1. Instead of having a couple of monkey's doing production support actively monitoring application logs, we might use a tool that would monitor said logs, then simply page out to a support person in the event of a problem. 

2. Instead of having a dedicated person that would handle a release management phase, environment configuration and checking, we might write a script that would spin up a new environment and use a continuous integration process to generate a code artifact and push it to the appropriate environment without any human intervention. 

3. Instead of having a few other monkey's doing manual testing of the application, you would write scripts and write a test harness that would run through a full suite of tests.

In the modern IT world, that is the current reality of what automation means. Other than PR puff pieces, at no stage have I ever heard of some sort of magical automation tool that can make developers obsolete. Rather, automation is taking the sort of low-tech infrastructure/testing work out of the hands of humans.

In my opinion, the future for competent IT people (they don't even have to be world beaters) is excellent. 

Its cost ~10k/year to put a bum on a seat in the UK.

Anything to avoid that is worth doing.

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2 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said:

You are aware that 99+% of websites are database-driven, content management systems, right? HTML is just the bit that's delivered in the browser - a lot goes on before that happens. 

Yes. But they are normally pretty static.

Once you start usin a website as a wb front end - order processing, kicking off events, HA, then it gets a lot more complex.

See:

g

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