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Sturgeon plans to announce new Scottish referendum


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On 3/27/2017 at 2:09 PM, AThirdWay said:

Aye, that'll be what it is. Far better a UK.gov slave than a eu slave   ;)

....as I mentioned Sturgeon would get independence from the UK if she opened the vote up to the whole of the UK ..much more democratic ....most people want a fairer and more level playing field ...that would be the right step.....:rolleyes:

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14 hours ago, South Lorne said:

....as I mentioned Sturgeon would get independence from the UK if she opened the vote up to the whole of the UK ..much more democratic ....most people want a fairer and more level playing field ...that would be the right step.....:rolleyes:

Most of the UK would probably happily go with Scotland and leave London behind.

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14 hours ago, South Lorne said:

....as I mentioned Sturgeon would get independence from the UK if she opened the vote up to the whole of the UK ..much more democratic ....most people want a fairer and more level playing field ...that would be the right step.....:rolleyes:

So, if Scotland voted no again, we'd still get independence? You've highlight the democratic deficit nicely, cheers!

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2 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

So, if Scotland voted no again, we'd still get independence? You've highlight the democratic deficit nicely, cheers!

I thought you were in favour of Scottish independence. Why should it matter if it was achieved using votes from across the whole UK?

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On 29/03/2017 at 0:59 PM, onlooker said:

I thought you were in favour of Scottish independence. Why should it matter if it was achieved using votes from across the whole UK?

I am, and am happy to gain independence through any democratic means. I didn't suggest otherwise in my previous comment. I merely pointed out the democratic deficit that South Lorne ( :rolleyes: ) highlighted. The biggest partner in this union can force legislation on all three junior partners with impunity.

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4 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

I am, and am happy to gain independence through any democratic means. I didn't suggest otherwise in my previous comment. I merely pointed out the democratic deficit that South Lorne ( :rolleyes: ) highlighted. The biggest partner in this union can force legislation on all three junior partners with impunity.

If I was a Scot now living in England, and there are a great many both temporary and semi-permanently, I would think it a democratic deficit that I couldn't vote in a Scottish referendum. Are you happy to disenfranchise them? Seems very unfair. At least for the EU referendum, Brits settled in France and Span had the vote.

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On 3/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, AThirdWay said:

So, if Scotland voted no again, we'd still get independence? You've highlight the democratic deficit nicely, cheers!

...yes it is....Scotland staying or leaving affects everyone in the UK  ..we should all have a say ....the West Lothian question is already a real democratic deficit which would be solved if we all voted....:rolleyes:

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17 hours ago, onlooker said:

If I was a Scot now living in England, and there are a great many both temporary and semi-permanently, I would think it a democratic deficit that I couldn't vote in a Scottish referendum. Are you happy to disenfranchise them? Seems very unfair. At least for the EU referendum, Brits settled in France and Span had the vote.

That the right of suffrage be extended to the inhabitants of the country/state/bloc in question, is a far more established electoral norm than that decided on in the EU vote. Why would you think the EU referendum would be the model applied, given that the extent of franchise was established during indyref1?

Doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

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13 hours ago, South Lorne said:

...yes it is....Scotland staying or leaving affects everyone in the UK  ..we should all have a say ....the West Lothian question is already a real democratic deficit which would be solved if we all voted....:rolleyes:

Why? Why should all UK inhabitants have a say? Do you think all citizens of the EU should have had a vote during the EU ref? The UK leaving the EU will affect them, so why didn't they get a say?

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5 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

Why? Why should all UK inhabitants have a say? Do you think all citizens of the EU should have had a vote during the EU ref? The UK leaving the EU will affect them, so why didn't they get a say?

EU citizens living in the UK didn't get a vote in the EU referendum, no matter how long they'd been living here, whereas UK citizens settled outside the UK for up to 15 years did.

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7 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

That the right of suffrage be extended to the inhabitants of the country/state/bloc in question, is a far more established electoral norm than that decided on in the EU vote. Why would you think the EU referendum would be the model applied, given that the extent of franchise was established during indyref1?

Doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

There are no established electoral norms here - it is all being made up as we go along. Our Parliament has just gone through turmoil because many MPs are very concerned about the rights of British citizens now resident in the rest of the EU, to such an extent that their rights may affect our negotiating strength. Yet you are happy to dismiss the rights of those Scots now living in England, as being of no relevance. Most that I know (my wife included) are not happy with that attitude from north of the Border.

It doesn't bother me however. The sooner Barnett is abolished the better. It is a solidarity tax on England I for one don't want to pay.

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7 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

Why? Why should all UK inhabitants have a say? Do you think all citizens of the EU should have had a vote during the EU ref? The UK leaving the EU will affect them, so why didn't they get a say?

Other citizens in other countries in the EU aren't part of the UK, the EU is not a country, as much as some people seem to want it to be. Everyone British is part of the same country though.

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4 hours ago, onlooker said:

There are no established electoral norms here - it is all being made up as we go along. Our Parliament has just gone through turmoil because many MPs are very concerned about the rights of British citizens now resident in the rest of the EU, to such an extent that their rights may affect our negotiating strength. Yet you are happy to dismiss the rights of those Scots now living in England, as being of no relevance. Most that I know (my wife included) are not happy with that attitude from north of the Border.

It doesn't bother me however. The sooner Barnett is abolished the better. It is a solidarity tax on England I for one don't want to pay.

It's fairly obvious it doesn't bother you, as you couldn't be bothered to actually make an argument....

There is an established electoral franchise with regard to a Scottish independence referendum, it was agreed between Holyrood and Westminster in 2014.

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4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Other citizens in other countries in the EU aren't part of the UK, the EU is not a country, as much as some people seem to want it to be. Everyone British is part of the same country though.

The UK is made up of four distinct, legally recognised, countries. Go on, tell me it's not so ;)

The union of the United Kingdom is every bit as fragile as the EU, arguably more so.

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11 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

It's fairly obvious it doesn't bother you, as you couldn't be bothered to actually make an argument....

There is an established electoral franchise with regard to a Scottish independence referendum, it was agreed between Holyrood and Westminster in 2014.

According to Google definitions, 'established' means:

having existed or done something for a long time and therefore recognized and generally accepted.

"the ceremony was an established event in the annual calendar"
synonyms: accepted, traditional, orthodox, habitual, confirmed, entrenched, set, fixed, official, settled, dyed-in-the-wool, inveterate;

 

Something agreed in 2014 is not established. It can be easily changed, almost on a whim. Like saying Indyref was once in a generation, and now we are going to have another after only a couple of years. Personally since Scottish independence is a 'national' issue, I would have thought it was right to make every effort to extend the franchise to those who believe they belong to that nation - and there are plenty of expatriate Scots living south of the border who I believe should have their vote on Scottish independence counted.

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On 3/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, AThirdWay said:

So, if Scotland voted no again, we'd still get independence? You've highlight the democratic deficit nicely, cheers!

...hahhhh.....but nobody knows...that is life...sail it ..there are no guarantees in democracy or anywhere ..you have to work at it....get working...:rolleyes:

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On 3/31/2017 at 11:36 AM, AThirdWay said:

Why? Why should all UK inhabitants have a say? Do you think all citizens of the EU should have had a vote during the EU ref? The UK leaving the EU will affect them, so why didn't they get a say?

...they are not a constituted country with common laws and taxes ......different animal.....:rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

The UK is made up of four distinct, legally recognised, countries. Go on, tell me it's not so ;)

The union of the United Kingdom is every bit as fragile as the EU, arguably more so.

......ditto as above ... the EU  are not a constituted country with common laws and taxes ......different animal....way of track ...:rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne
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19 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

It's fairly obvious it doesn't bother you, as you couldn't be bothered to actually make an argument....

There is an established electoral franchise with regard to a Scottish independence referendum, it was agreed between Holyrood and Westminster in 2014.

...yeah ..Cameron and Holyrood ...needs a new definition ......:rolleyes:

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On 3/29/2017 at 9:57 AM, Riedquat said:

Most of the UK would probably happily go with Scotland and leave London behind.

...but a lot of London  voted remain (smug and elite as they are) ...the areas who wish to leave are the people who receive no VI handouts / remuneration ..and wish to get out of this non democratic institution where the unelected cowboys rule the roost ....:rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

The UK is made up of four distinct, legally recognised, countries. Go on, tell me it's not so ;)

The union of the United Kingdom is every bit as fragile as the EU, arguably more so.

..we know it is fragile ...and it is worth taking a democratic punt to see if the rest of the UK will help you .....all countries throughout the world are fragile....:rolleyes:

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15 hours ago, South Lorne said:

...they are not a constituted country with common laws and taxes ......different animal.....:rolleyes:

Really? No common laws or taxes? Then if we "have our country back", what have we got back? What loss of 'sovereignty' has everybody been banging on about?

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11 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

Really? No common laws or taxes? Then if we "have our country back", what have we got back? What loss of 'sovereignty' has everybody been banging on about?

...it is one of the weaknesses of the 'union' there are no  common legal systems  and/  or taxes / budgets.....VAT is different everywhere the... Luxemburg comedian drew in the International companies to his country in this way at something like 2 or 3% VAT ..before his elevated position in the EU.. .most countries are arounf 18-20%....income tax is all different as is corporation tax etc etc ....we have some common laws...but mostly all countries have their own legal systems ...the loss of sovereignty is creeping and very much slowly hinted at from people in the EU who are unelected ....hints of a common army, navy and airforce ..and most don't pay their fair contribution to NATO..they just want us to do it to save themselves some money ....great Union ...full of chancers....:rolleyes:

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On 15/03/2017 at 11:36 PM, RentingForever said:

Sturgeon is all over the press talking about the referendum being to give the Scottish people a choice. Presumably then as well as "stay in the UK / leave the EU" and "leave the UK / apply to join the EU" options that the SNP are pushing they'll also be offering "Leave the Uk / Leave the EU"  as an option? For all the fishermen whose livelihoods have been destroyed by EU quotas?

 

Scotland can't 'stay in the EU' as the membership lies with the UK, not Scotland.  This was made clear during the Independence referendum.  They must first secede from the UK, then apply for EU membership as a new state.

They probably could get that membership relatively (as in, 3-5 years) quickly - if the Spanish don't block them because of concerns over Catalonia and the Basque Region.  But they will be out of both the UK and out of the UK should they choose independence.

 

Sturgeon is taking the opportunity to call for another vote now, because she knows she'll lose the support of the Greens once the SNP gives the go-ahead for fracking.

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Sour Mash said:

 

Scotland can't 'stay in the EU' as the membership lies with the UK, not Scotland.  This was made clear during the Independence referendum.  They must first secede from the UK, then apply for EU membership as a new state.

They probably could get that membership relatively (as in, 3-5 years) quickly - if the Spanish don't block them because of concerns over Catalonia and the Basque Region.  But they will be out of both the UK and out of the UK should they choose independence.

 

Sturgeon is taking the opportunity to call for another vote now, because she knows she'll lose the support of the Greens once the SNP gives the go-ahead for fracking.

 

 

 

Ahem....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

Plus, joining EFTA could be instantaneous, given the political will, with the suggestion that full membership could be " the fastest accession process of any EU state so far ".

http://www.scotsman.com/news/an-independent-scotland-could-be-fast-tracked-into-the-eu-1-4371192

I suspect that Scotland may get a sweetheart deal to join EFTA, basically to rub the rUK's nose in it, and after a couple of years of this, Sturgeon (in the case of the SNP still being in power) may then sideline full membership. Just musing, nothing at all to back that up....

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