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Sturgeon plans to announce new Scottish referendum


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2 hours ago, RentingForever said:

Sturgeon is all over the press talking about the referendum being to give the Scottish people a choice. Presumably then as well as "stay in the UK / leave the EU" and "leave the UK / apply to join the EU" options that the SNP are pushing they'll also be offering "Leave the Uk / Leave the EU"  as an option? For all the fishermen whose livelihoods have been destroyed by EU quotas?

The choice being "keeping choosing until you eventually choose what I want" it would appear. So far they've made a thoroughly despicable show of dragging out excuses to try to hold another referendum very shortly after the last one, which demonstrates a complete lack of respect of the result of that. As I said above (or somewhere, at any rate) it demonstrates a rather dim view towards the Scottish people, a bit odd for a nationalist party. At any rate Sturgeon's behaviour is a disgrace.

Seeing as the EU referendum was a possibility at the time of the Scotland vote if it really was a big enough change then the SNP should've waited until after the EU referendum (or after it was ruled out, had the general election result been different) before holding the Scotland one. They were told at the time it was a once in a generation choice, whatever they spouted at the time and continue to do so.

None of this means I've any disrespect for people who want Scotland independent - good luck to them if they believe it should be, just the way some of them are going about things. After the last result it should've been moved to a long-term goal.

Edited by Riedquat
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9 hours ago, RentingForever said:

Sturgeon is all over the press talking about the referendum being to give the Scottish people a choice. Presumably then as well as "stay in the UK / leave the EU" and "leave the UK / apply to join the EU" options that the SNP are pushing they'll also be offering "Leave the Uk / Leave the EU"  as an option? For all the fishermen whose livelihoods have been destroyed by EU quotas?

All of those options will be on offer to the Scottish people at the first Scottish election. The very second Scotland comes into being as a separate nation, Holyrood loses it's legitimacy. Elections must be held to determine who will form the first Government of Scotland, and given that 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU, I have no doubt that a party will have that in their manifesto. Probably the tories, I doubt UKIP would ever get a hold in Scotland.

The SNP may go the way of UKIP.... Once their raison d'etre has been achieved, what's the point of them?

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6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

The choice being "keeping choosing until you eventually choose what I want" it would appear. So far they've made a thoroughly despicable show of dragging out excuses to try to hold another referendum very shortly after the last one, which demonstrates a complete lack of respect of the result of that. As I said above (or somewhere, at any rate) it demonstrates a rather dim view towards the Scottish people, a bit odd for a nationalist party. At any rate Sturgeon's behaviour is a disgrace.

Seeing as the EU referendum was a possibility at the time of the Scotland vote if it really was a big enough change then the SNP should've waited until after the EU referendum (or after it was ruled out, had the general election result been different) before holding the Scotland one. They were told at the time it was a once in a generation choice, whatever they spouted at the time and continue to do so.

None of this means I've any disrespect for people who want Scotland independent - good luck to them if they believe it should be, just the way some of them are going about things. After the last result it should've been moved to a long-term goal.

Again, I would point out that the SNP won a landslide victory, gaining the biggest vote share ever seen in modern times in this country, on an unequivocal manifesto pledge to push for a second referendum in the case of Scotland being removed from the EU against the will of the voters.

That IS democracy at work, what you describe is not.

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Well when they are gone, we'll never have to worry about a Scottish dominated Labour party signing us up to stupid things like the Lisburn Treaty again.

We can also bring all those Govt. Admin jobs that Blair & Brown pushed north, back south; about 100K of them. That's before we even count the ship yards/defence spending.

So next time they laughable say that they pay more tax per head.. we'll know it wont be for much longer.

The fact the entire UK is f**ked is beyond their thought processes. They are like the spoiled child trying to squeeze the last few pennies out of their bankrupt parents.

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1 hour ago, AThirdWay said:

Again, I would point out that the SNP won a landslide victory, gaining the biggest vote share ever seen in modern times in this country, on an unequivocal manifesto pledge to push for a second referendum in the case of Scotland being removed from the EU against the will of the voters.

That IS democracy at work, what you describe is not.

Sorry, it is not. "The vote didn't go my way, I'll keep holding them until it does" is autocracy under a veneer of democracy, an unwillingness to accept any result that doesn't go your way, no respect for the people who voted against you, and a way of insisting that your plans, not anyone else's, will always happen.

Scotland is not being removed from the EU against the will of the voters. The UK, of which Scotland had decided to remain a part, is being removed with the will of the UK's voters, and every vote in Scotland counted for just as much as every vote elsewhere in the UK. Various other parts and people voted Remain too.

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4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Sorry, it is not. "The vote didn't go my way, I'll keep holding them until it does" is autocracy under a veneer of democracy, an unwillingness to accept any result that doesn't go your way, no respect for the people who voted against you, and a way of insisting that your plans, not anyone else's, will always happen.

Scotland is not being removed from the EU against the will of the voters. The UK, of which Scotland had decided to remain a part, is being removed with the will of the UK's voters, and every vote in Scotland counted for just as much as every vote elsewhere in the UK. Various other parts and people voted Remain too.

But it wasn't "the vote didn't go my way, I'll keep holding them until it does", was it? If that were the case, then I would probably agree with you.

The reality of the thought process was "the vote didn't go my way, fair enough. At the next election I'll go back to the electorate and ask for a mandate to hold another vote". Now, if you don't think that is democracy at work, what is? Do you think that we shouldn't bother having another GE? local elections? I posted a comment on this site, a day or two after IndyRef1, that I had survived the hangover, time to roll up the sleeves and look to Indyref2. that's what you do after a political defeat, onwards and upwards. Did you really expect 45% of the electorate to roll over and play dead  :rolleyes:

I agree with every part of you 2nd paragraph, and if you had read my previous comments you would realise that. If Scotland is part of the UK come Brexit, we go out with the UK.

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6 hours ago, Unbowed said:

Well when they are gone, we'll never have to worry about a Scottish dominated Labour party signing us up to stupid things like the Lisburn Treaty again.

We can also bring all those Govt. Admin jobs that Blair & Brown pushed north, back south; about 100K of them. That's before we even count the ship yards/defence spending.

So next time they laughable say that they pay more tax per head.. we'll know it wont be for much longer.

The fact the entire UK is f**ked is beyond their thought processes. They are like the spoiled child trying to squeeze the last few pennies out of their bankrupt parents.

You need have no concern about a "Scottish dominated Labour party" Unbowed, their 2015 vote share was 24.3% in Scotland, compared to 30.4% across the UK  :lol:

The percentage of civil servants per capita in the rUK is greater than the percentage in Scotland: Good luck finding someone to build your boats, but may I remind you that defence spending in this way is not a particularly productive way of stimulating employment? We'll take the Scottish share of tax payers money and use it in a more productive way. Mind and take you Billion pound nukes with you, and the 520 jobs that it supports.

http://nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident

Again, we'll find better ways to spend Scotland's share of that money.

Your last sentence genuinely made me laugh out loud. "The entire UK is f**ked".... yes, but we have an out. good luck paying that Westminster debt  ;)

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1 hour ago, AThirdWay said:

But it wasn't "the vote didn't go my way, I'll keep holding them until it does", was it? If that were the case, then I would probably agree with you.

The reality of the thought process was "the vote didn't go my way, fair enough. At the next election I'll go back to the electorate and ask for a mandate to hold another vote". Now, if you don't think that is democracy at work, what is? Do you think that we shouldn't bother having another GE? local elections?

I think we shouldn't bother calling for further general elections every time something happens, such as the wrong party winning. There's a timetable for those (one established in law now), and the party that lost an election hasn't generally gone on calling for another one shortly afterwards - because doing so would be trying to push the democratic result another way when you didn't like the one you got. The basis of the Scotland referendum was that was the question answered for a good long while, no matter how much the SNP tried to pretend otherwise. Now Sturgeon just wants to overturn the democratic decision that Scotland made to remain in the UK for at least a generation. In the mean time they should be working for more devolution (maybe aiming for an in-between federal model), with independence a long-term goal.

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11 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

 

The SNP may go the way of UKIP.... Once their raison d'etre has been achieved, what's the point of them?

Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd that a party devoted to nationalism should be advocating membership of the EU, and devolving powers to Brussels?

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2 hours ago, copydude said:

Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd that a party devoted to nationalism should be advocating membership of the EU, and devolving powers to Brussels?

No. I'd be happy for Scotland to have the same representation as every other EU member state. I'll make the James O'Brien argument, which specific UK law (remember these ARE UK laws, not EU laws), resulting from an EU Directive do you disagree with?

I can't think of any.

Edit: does it strike you as odd that many who argued that we were better off making our own decisions locally, without the interference of the EU, would now deny Scotland the right to make decisions locally, without the interference of Westminster?

Edited by AThirdWay
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6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

I think we shouldn't bother calling for further general elections every time something happens, such as the wrong party winning. There's a timetable for those (one established in law now), and the party that lost an election hasn't generally gone on calling for another one shortly afterwards - because doing so would be trying to push the democratic result another way when you didn't like the one you got. The basis of the Scotland referendum was that was the question answered for a good long while, no matter how much the SNP tried to pretend otherwise. Now Sturgeon just wants to overturn the democratic decision that Scotland made to remain in the UK for at least a generation. In the mean time they should be working for more devolution (maybe aiming for an in-between federal model), with independence a long-term goal.

The timetable for GE's has been formalised, no such timetable exists for referenda.

I have no idea where you got the idea that "the basis of the Scotland referendum was that was the question answered for a good long while". No such basis was mentioned before, during or shortly after the Edinburgh Agreement. Salmond may have came out with his "once in a generation" battlecry, but that was waaaay after the basis of the referendum was decided, and nothing to do with me!

Once again, IndyRef2 is a direct result of the democratic process. No matter how many times you claim otherwise, that won't change. You are simply wrong on that point.

As for devolution, if devo-max had been allowed as a third option in the 2014 referendum, we wouldn't be having this exchange. Hell, I might have voted for devo-max myself! Not to include that option was yet another catastrophic decision by Cameron, so here we all are.... I hate to be predictable, but you can blame that on the tories  ;)

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21 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

You need have no concern about a "Scottish dominated Labour party" Unbowed, their 2015 vote share was 24.3% in Scotland, compared to 30.4% across the UK  :lol:

The percentage of civil servants per capita in the rUK is greater than the percentage in Scotland: Good luck finding someone to build your boats, but may I remind you that defence spending in this way is not a particularly productive way of stimulating employment? We'll take the Scottish share of tax payers money and use it in a more productive way. Mind and take you Billion pound nukes with you, and the 520 jobs that it supports.

http://nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident

Again, we'll find better ways to spend Scotland's share of that money.

Your last sentence genuinely made me laugh out loud. "The entire UK is f**ked".... yes, but we have an out. good luck paying that Westminster debt  ;)

I looked up the facts prior to the Indy Ref to try an get a fair perspective on the money side of things, rather than the Westminster or SNP spin

At he time, I found Scotland had 24% of people working for the state, compared to 19% in England. It seems that it has dropped since then, and Wales and NI have gone up:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/2015-06-17#employment-in-the-civil-service-and-executive-non-departmental-public-bodies-ndpbs

I blame that Scottish dominated Labour Party for their mass immigration policy, which the rest of the Westminster elite have failed to reverse. That it turn has lead to the real mess we are in now, with large numbers out of work, under-employed, or undercut etc, because of all these extra mouths to feed that we didn't need. Plus all the extra pressure on public services it has created. I don't suppose you have that problem north of the border, no one bothered to migrate there due to the lack of sunlight and all those damned midges!

So hardly surprising people this side of the border said Brexit.

I don't blame you for wanting out, but deep down you know that you'll only swap one bunch of crooks for another.

But if you do go, I wonder what it'll do to your house prices?

 

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11 hours ago, Unbowed said:

I looked up the facts prior to the Indy Ref to try an get a fair perspective on the money side of things, rather than the Westminster or SNP spin

At he time, I found Scotland had 24% of people working for the state, compared to 19% in England. It seems that it has dropped since then, and Wales and NI have gone up:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/2015-06-17#employment-in-the-civil-service-and-executive-non-departmental-public-bodies-ndpbs

I blame that Scottish dominated Labour Party for their mass immigration policy, which the rest of the Westminster elite have failed to reverse. That it turn has lead to the real mess we are in now, with large numbers out of work, under-employed, or undercut etc, because of all these extra mouths to feed that we didn't need. Plus all the extra pressure on public services it has created. I don't suppose you have that problem north of the border, no one bothered to migrate there due to the lack of sunlight and all those damned midges!

So hardly surprising people this side of the border said Brexit.

I don't blame you for wanting out, but deep down you know that you'll only swap one bunch of crooks for another.

But if you do go, I wonder what it'll do to your house prices?

 

Do you know, we're not that far apart? I have always said that you can forget every other factor, the Brexit vote could be boiled down to a single issue, immigration. I've also posted that Scotland has not seen the same immigration numbers as some areas of England and Wales. If we had, the Brexit vote may have been significantly different North of the border.

But we are where we are. Scotland NEED'S immigration. Why? because our population growth has been stagnant for years. Why? Because Westminster legislation has seen Scotland denuded of the jobs and opportunities that are required to attract the young. It all leads to the same conclusion. Westminster legislates for London and The City first, Devil take the rest of you!

All this does is underline the difference between Scotland and London (The City). Lordy Lordy, who will rid us of this cabal!

Apologies if this is a rant, please blame Hennessy's finest if it is. Happy Friday!  :D

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12 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

You just need a Scottish address...

 

You just need to be Scottish my friend.

https://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/what-does-it-mean-to-be-scottish/?_r=0

" What does it mean to be Scottish? Is it determined by what is written on an individual’s birth certificate or is it something more than this? Is a person who was born in Dundee, but has lived their whole life in Russia and cannot speak any English or Gaelic, Scottish or Russian? "

https://scotlandonscreen.org.uk/resources/lesson-guides/scottish-identity

We don't care where you came from, we care only that you belong. I honestly, genuinely, wish we could extend that through the North of England, through Wales, Ireland and to the doors of Westminster.

Edited by AThirdWay
Drunkeness :)
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On 3/17/2017 at 0:56 AM, AThirdWay said:

No. I'd be happy for Scotland to have the same representation as every other EU member state. I'll make the James O'Brien argument, which specific UK law (remember these ARE UK laws, not EU laws), resulting from an EU Directive do you disagree with?

I can't think of any.

Something like 80% of our legislation comes from Brussels. So much that no-one can keep up with it. From the amount of cinammon in a Danish pastry to the typeface on a motorcycle number plate. Do you know how the smoke is regulated on an Arbroath Smokie? If Scotland doesn't want to be self-governing what's the point of this referendum? 

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7 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

I have always said that you can forget every other factor, the Brexit vote could be boiled down to a single issue, immigration. I've also posted that Scotland has not seen the same immigration numbers as some areas of England and Wales. If we had, the Brexit vote may have been significantly different North of the border.

 

Immigration may have been a lightning rod issue, but IMHO it was much to do with perceived economic deprivation. How else do you explain that the English counties just south of the Scottish border (with minimal immigrants) all voted for Brexit, but the adjacent counties in Scotland voted Remain? Maybe that 10% of GDP Barnett transfusion into the Scottish economy had an effect? Northumberland and Cumbria (and all the other deprived English regions) were voting Brexit to make a point, which Westminster has clearly now noticed.

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36 minutes ago, onlooker said:

Northumberland and Cumbria (and all the other deprived English regions) were voting Brexit to make a point, which Westminster has clearly now noticed.

Of course. Some of these areas are so run down they now look more like Eastern Europe than Eastern Europe.

 

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9 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

 

All this does is underline the difference between Scotland and London (The City). Lordy Lordy, who will rid us of this cabal!

Apologies if this is a rant, please blame Hennessy's finest if it is. Happy Friday!  :D

Actually I recall being in Dublin some time during the Blair years, and visiting Kilmainham Gaol. One of the tour guides was extremely nationalist and proud of the Easter rising etc. The 'Irish' American's were lapping it up. Of course my wife, had to remind the yanks that ordinary English, Scots and Welsh weren't any better off; they seem to think we were all part of the British ruling class. Anyway at one point she made some comment about ending London rule.... to which I quipped .. you were lucky, I wish we could opt out of it. She didn't really get it, but the rest of the Irish staff did.

As they say, Know your enemy.

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I still cannot work out May's refusing a referendum for Scotland.

The Conservatives have everything to gain if Scotland goes independent.

No more Labour governments without Scottish Labour seats.

The danger for the Conservatives I suppose that if Wee Kranky has another referendum and fails again, then Scottish voters may dump the SNP and return to Labour.

So, does Mrs May know something that we don't (i.e. SNP is already falling out of favour)

 

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Enter Brown.

R4 been trailing his great intervention in issue.

What a fcking loon.

Open goal for Snp.

Labour cannot deliver a pizza.

Labour are the 3rd party in Scotland. They are not even a force.

Back to the wardrobe Gordy, wearing your wifes sexiest pants.

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27 minutes ago, Byron said:

I still cannot work out May's refusing a referendum for Scotland.

The Conservatives have everything to gain if Scotland goes independent.

No more Labour governments without Scottish Labour seats.

The danger for the Conservatives I suppose that if Wee Kranky has another referendum and fails again, then Scottish voters may dump the SNP and return to Labour.

So, does Mrs May know something that we don't (i.e. SNP is already falling out of favour)

 

A couple of comments. First of all, an observation from the FT via Political Betting:

Quote

On the politics of the Sturgeon move there’s an excellent analysis by the FT’s Janan Ganesh, who notes that the short timetable put forward by Sturgeon is one that is “designed to be rejected, giving her, at the very least, a grievance with which to stoke nationalism.” 

Of course there will be another referendum, not just now. However, there is no guarantee that the SNP will continue to be as popular as it is at the moment, so Ms Sturgeon has a small window of opportunity. Her push for the 2nd referendum, so soon after the last 'once in a lifetime opportunity', is tailored around Brexit. 

Quote

The Conservatives have everything to gain if Scotland goes independent.

I don't think the political landscape would be the same in an independent Scotland. And as  'A Third Way' noted earlier, the SNP could easily go the way of UKIP, whose raison d'etre has effectively vaporised, revealing a very small cupboard of threadbare policies.

Mrs May is threatened by a smaller UK, but though this sounds of consequence, is it really? The numbers I've seen (assuming they are roughly accurate) don't really suggest Scotland or UK would have a vast problem splitting economies. In fact, smaller, more manageable, locally responsive units should work better. 

 

 

 

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