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Sturgeon plans to announce new Scottish referendum

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Indyref2 is inevitable (always has been since the terms of indyref1 were defined) but I'm not sure Sturgeon will actually confirm that intention. More likely she will announce the intention of ask Westminster for permission to have it.

Makes more political sense to do it this way, with May having little option other than to assent. To refuse would be to gift the result of a non-binding referendum to the SNP.

As EUBanana says, we can only hope.

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Seriously? Would Nicola Sturgeon ever just p1ss off. Scotland had the chance for independence - they rejected it.

Scottish people aren't stupid. They know their country is an absolute mess with deep social and economic issues. Westminster isn't perfect, but at least you have clever people there with long-term thinking and planning. If the jocks were to take control, they'd probably have the budget spent on Iron Bru and heroin :lol:

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1 hour ago, NuBrit said:

Seriously? Would Nicola Sturgeon ever just p1ss off. Scotland had the chance for independence - they rejected it.

Scottish people aren't stupid. They know their country is an absolute mess with deep social and economic issues. Westminster isn't perfect, but at least you have clever people there with long-term thinking and planning. If the jocks were to take control, they'd probably have the budget spent on Iron Bru and heroin :lol:

So you'll be a YES then?

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11 minutes ago, GloomMonger said:

A Scotland outside the UK and outside the EU, how does that work?

If Scotland are already in the EU and vote to leave the UK, surely the EU won't kick them out?

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4 minutes ago, NuBrit said:

If Scotland are already in the EU and vote to leave the UK, surely the EU won't kick them out?

The European Commission have already said Scotland have no automatic right to be part of the EU. They would have to apply for membership.

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13 minutes ago, GloomMonger said:

The European Commission have already said Scotland have no automatic right to be part of the EU. They would have to apply for membership.

Debatable, but they did say there would be no barriers to Scotland becoming a member and no 'queue' to worry about. Of course, if the people of Scotland wish to retain their EU citizenship, then Guy Verhofstadt is very supportive of that claim  :)

Edited by AThirdWay
C&P error!

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I believe every population has the right to vote on how they are governed. The thing I am most proud about of the United Kingdom is that in my life time it has accepted decisions where areas leave the UK / crown dependencies and maintained good relations. As a country we must have had more referendums for parts of the UK & crown dependencies deciding how they want to be governed in the future with the option of full independency then any other country. Just off the top of my head I can think of Scotland, Gibraltar, Falklands islands. If we look at Spain for example, no such option of an official referendum is allowed by significant member of the EU.

I can understand an independence movement in Scotland, but I've never understood the SNP wanting rid of the UK but wanting to be part of the EU. The UK for all its failings is very pro Scotland when you look at the number of ministers and prime ministers from Scotland in recent history, location of government functions are run from, and where military bases and manufacturing are located.

If Scotland votes for independence then I will be sad as it will erect an artificial line in my mind between my extended family. Given how little the might of the UK government managed to get from the EU in concessions in the recent Brexit referendum, and the big concessions the UK government gives Scotland, I really am puzzled how being anti UK membership, but pro EU membership works, but that is for the voters of Scotland to decide.

Personally I think Scottish independence in the middle of Brexit would destroy both countries in a level of complication yet to be given a name! If unravelling our membership of a political body with only partial union we've been a member of for 40 years is as complicated as it is supposed to be, how we unravel 300 years with pretty much full union is beyond me.

I think Nicola Sturgeon really just wants to whip up ill feeling between people again in the hope that either she gets lucky, or it lays the groundwork for indyref 3 at some point.

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3 hours ago, Save me from the madness! said:

Personally I think Scottish independence in the middle of Brexit would destroy both countries in a level of complication yet to be given a name! If unravelling our membership of a political body with only partial union we've been a member of for 40 years is as complicated as it is supposed to be, how we unravel 300 years with pretty much full union is beyond me.

I think Nicola Sturgeon really just wants to whip up ill feeling between people again in the hope that either she gets lucky, or it lays the groundwork for indyref 3 at some point.

I think she's got no respect whatsoever for any decision that doesn't come out the way she wants, no sense of commitment to any promises Scotland has made, and is perfectly happy to pursue the course she wants even if it fvcks up everything, Scotland included. She is a truly vile person. She's not a Scottish nationalist, otherwise she'd respect the decision Scotland made in 2014. She's not interested in the best economic path for Scotland, otherwise she'd be waiting to see a few years post Brexit, when the situation is rather clearer and so a more informed choice can be made.

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6 hours ago, NuBrit said:

Seriously? Would Nicola Sturgeon ever just p1ss off. Scotland had the chance for independence - they rejected it.

Exactly. It's appalling behaviour to be trying to stir up another one now.

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If Sturgeon really wants Independence she should make sure the rest of the UK are allowed to vote ...I am Scottish live in England and not allowed to vote but I know that most people in England would support her....she doesn't get it...open up the vote for the sake of democracy lady .....:rolleyes:

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On 13/03/2017 at 8:08 PM, Riedquat said:

I think she's got no respect whatsoever for any decision that doesn't come out the way she wants, no sense of commitment to any promises Scotland has made, and is perfectly happy to pursue the course she wants even if it fvcks up everything, Scotland included. She is a truly vile person. She's not a Scottish nationalist, otherwise she'd respect the decision Scotland made in 2014. She's not interested in the best economic path for Scotland, otherwise she'd be waiting to see a few years post Brexit, when the situation is rather clearer and so a more informed choice can be made.

Really? Her mandate is clear. The SNP manifesto clearly said "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and  sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will". On that manifesto, the SNP increased their constituency vote share in 2016.

If this is not a commitment to a promise, what is?

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On 13/03/2017 at 10:16 PM, South Lorne said:

If Sturgeon really wants Independence she should make sure the rest of the UK are allowed to vote ...I am Scottish live in England and not allowed to vote but I know that most people in England would support her....she doesn't get it...open up the vote for the sake of democracy lady .....:rolleyes:

Hmm, bit of a logic fail there. Allow the rUK to vote on whether Scotland should be freed from the votes of the rUK....... :lol:

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1 hour ago, AThirdWay said:

Really? Her mandate is clear. The SNP manifesto clearly said "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and  sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will". On that manifesto, the SNP increased their constituency vote share in 2016.

If this is not a commitment to a promise, what is?

Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK.  The SNP are legally, morally and democratically bound by this vote.  Scotland then participated in a 'UK' referendum, they did not opt out of this referendum so they are legally and morally bound by the democratic decision of the people to leave the EU.  If by Scotland's participation in the EU referendum the Scottish numbers had been sufficient to swing the UK vote so that the UK remained in the EU, the rest of the country would have been morally legally and democratically bound to stay in the EU, and I am absolutely certain we would have, because the rest of the UK has more integrity. The SNP are behaving undemocratically on both counts, and leading the Scots to do the same.  They are double-dealers and making the Scots into the same! I could not blame the English if they said go now....please go!

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP did not accept the stated will of a democratic majority of the Scottish people.  Within hours of the 2014 vote they were talking about another referendum.  The Brexit negotiations are not really of any import to the SNP, it is just a means of manipulating yet another independence referendum because much to their chagrin they were beaten in 2014.  I was a remainer but I did not give my permission for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP to hijack my vote as evidence for a second Scottish referendum.   I am sure there are many Scottish remainers who feel exactly the same.

I believe that The UK Government should agree to the second referendum but get the Scottish Parliament to likewise agree that the result would be truly the settled will of the Scottish people for a generation, and not be twisted again by the conniving double-tongued SNP.  I say this with confidence because I believe the SNP would be defeated again. Theresa May should call their bluff and say have it within the next 6 months.  The SNP would pee their kilts!

Bring it on!

 

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3 hours ago, Alba said:

Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK.  The SNP are legally, morally and democratically bound by this vote.  Scotland then participated in a 'UK' referendum, they did not opt out of this referendum so they are legally and morally bound by the democratic decision of the people to leave the EU.  If by Scotland's participation in the EU referendum the Scottish numbers had been sufficient to swing the UK vote so that the UK remained in the EU, the rest of the country would have been morally legally and democratically bound to stay in the EU, and I am absolutely certain we would have, because the rest of the UK has more integrity. The SNP are behaving undemocratically on both counts, and leading the Scots to do the same.  They are double-dealers and making the Scots into the same! I could not blame the English if they said go now....please go!

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP did not accept the stated will of a democratic majority of the Scottish people.  Within hours of the 2014 vote they were talking about another referendum.  The Brexit negotiations are not really of any import to the SNP, it is just a means of manipulating yet another independence referendum because much to their chagrin they were beaten in 2014.  I was a remainer but I did not give my permission for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP to hijack my vote as evidence for a second Scottish referendum.   I am sure there are many Scottish remainers who feel exactly the same.

I believe that The UK Government should agree to the second referendum but get the Scottish Parliament to likewise agree that the result would be truly the settled will of the Scottish people for a generation, and not be twisted again by the conniving double-tongued SNP.  I say this with confidence because I believe the SNP would be defeated again. Theresa May should call their bluff and say have it within the next 6 months.  The SNP would pee their kilts!

Bring it on!

 

Were you posting prior to the 2014 referendum? I posted then that Scottish independence is inevitable. It's not a question of if, it is a question of when.

So, tell me where it is written that I am "morally and democratically bound" not to demand a 2nd referendum? Where are the rules regarding the periodicity of referenda? I don't give a monkeys what Salmond said about his "once in a generation" referendum, that has nothing to do with me. If you think the Brexiteers would have accepted a Remain vote, you're delusional :lol:.  Sturgeonand the SNP do not need your permission, sorry and all that, they received a massive mandate from the Scottish electorate last year.

Scotland did participate in a UK-wide referendum on the EU, and I have no problem with Scotland being taken out of the EU, if we are still part of the UK. Do you agree with the flip side of that argument, if we are not part of the UK, then the EU referendum does not apply? As for the SNP's reaction to the 2014 referendum, in what way did the SNP not accept the result? Talking of another referendum surely means that the result WAS accepted, time to move on? Can I also remind you that, within 24 hours of the referendum result, Westminster announced a massive change to the constitution without prior negotiation? What's good for the goose....

Your last paragraph is, of course, nonsense. No government can legislate to bind the next government. Given the polls, I would welcome IndyRef2 in Aug/Sept, bring it on!

p.s And if we lose that, roll on IndyRef3 (Are you getting where I'm coming from yet?) :P

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I can't be bothered with a rebuttal.  I have said my piece and you have said yours, and ner the twain shall meet!

See you at the ballot box!

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4 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

p.s And if we lose that, roll on IndyRef3 (Are you getting where I'm coming from yet?) :P

An IndyRef3 would be a long way off but the demographics suggest a formality...

IMG_1489531498.404704.jpg.495805c1cba5f9

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What are the terms of Scottish independence. If Brexit has taught us anything it's important to clarify what leaving the union means. Do the Scots take some of the national debt? How much? Do they keep the pound and can they print it? Which industries do they keep? All the oil fields? Can Scots remain in England or do they need to apply for visas? It's not that straightforward. 

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Sturgeon is all over the press talking about the referendum being to give the Scottish people a choice. Presumably then as well as "stay in the UK / leave the EU" and "leave the UK / apply to join the EU" options that the SNP are pushing they'll also be offering "Leave the Uk / Leave the EU"  as an option? For all the fishermen whose livelihoods have been destroyed by EU quotas?

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