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Saving For a Space Ship

UK given "final warning" by EU over air pollution limit breaches

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Tube 'higher than driving' for air pollution, study finds

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38969190

Quote

Travelling on the Underground exposes commuters to more than eight times as much air pollution as those who drive to work, a university study has found.

Monitors worn by commuters found those who travelled on the Tube were exposed to 68mg of harmful pollutant PM10, whereas car drivers had 8.2mg.

The University of Surrey study found when train windows were open, commuters were exposed to more pollutants.

Drivers were not as exposed because cars filter the pollutants out.

But although drivers are not exposed to as many pollutants, the types given out by cars are more harmful than the ones found on the Underground.

 

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Large cities, overpopulation, chronic overcrowding of available mass transport systems leads to more driving, more buses.

The EU is partly responsible for some of the knock on effects. 

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From a purely London-centric perspective, air pollution (primarily from vehicles) is the tobacco of our age, and rightly so. We will look back at our casual attitude towards it and be horrified by our ignorance. 

 

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50 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

What are they going to do, give us detention so we can't leave for another decade?

 

It's all those German and French diesels they missold to us coupled with an unfavourable climate.

Fine us, I expect, we've not left the EU yet. That's a rather blasé attitude, rather like the motorist who speeds, thinking "Meh, plenty of points left before a ban". It's not about the penalty, or even the law, but acting in a socially responsible manner.

Disclaimer: though I observe speed limits in built-up areas (even the 20mph ones) and am usually within 5mph of them on either side, I do break them, especially on the motorway. I view them as guidance to complement my judgement of what speed is safe, with the letter of the law behind because otherwise irresponsible people would ignore them. I think that's a sensible approach for a sensible person. I don't fear the penalty, but the consequence of driving at an unsafe speed. It's the ones who drive at 40mph whether it's a 30 zone or 60 that do my head in - either they zoom off in front or you're stuck behind them.

My point being, even if speed limits were not enforceable, I would observe them fairly fastidiously while allowing some judgement on my part. So it should be with pollution: leaving the EU may make us legally free to pollute as much as we like, that doesn't mean it's right to do so.

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If it is a priority where's the EU grants for the work.

Plenty to go around to build road network around rural northern france and accession countries over the years.

 

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28 minutes ago, Digsby said:

Fine us, I expect, we've not left the EU yet. That's a rather blasé attitude, rather like the motorist who speeds, thinking "Meh, plenty of points left before a ban". It's not about the penalty, or even the law, but acting in a socially responsible manner.

Disclaimer: though I observe speed limits in built-up areas (even the 20mph ones) and am usually within 5mph of them on either side, I do break them, especially on the motorway. I view them as guidance to complement my judgement of what speed is safe, with the letter of the law behind because otherwise irresponsible people would ignore them. I think that's a sensible approach for a sensible person. I don't fear the penalty, but the consequence of driving at an unsafe speed. It's the ones who drive at 40mph whether it's a 30 zone or 60 that do my head in - either they zoom off in front or you're stuck behind them.

My point being, even if speed limits were not enforceable, I would observe them fairly fastidiously while allowing some judgement on my part. So it should be with pollution: leaving the EU may make us legally free to pollute as much as we like, that doesn't mean it's right to do so.

even if we changed our diesels for horses and carts and blokes with red flags in front, they would be complaining about horse-farts damaging the environment.

 

i don't disagree with making some changes to the way we provide transport etc,but it should not be to the detriment of society at large,and should MOST CERTAINLY NOT be used and abused as a method to control populations....innovation is better than legislation.

 

There are some very exciting new(old-ish) technologies like ceramic engines ,and turbines that could quite easily double mpg figures,and increase reliability(through less worn-out parts),that could reduce our carbon footprint without the need for incessant government meddling and micromanagement.

problem is government like power...they like it too much.

 

what is the carbon footprint of creating a traffic calming speed hump,and the extra shock absorbers required to cope with the bumps when they are knackered?

Edited by oracle

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Why are people concentrating on the EU aspect rather than the outrageous levels of pollution in London? That's the real story. 

Living in London I find it incredible the amount of people I know with respiratory problems after moving here. A doctor once told me the only way to cure my sinus issues was to move. 

Maybe if the Eu is telling us it's a problem we should do something and listen to them rather then grumble about europe

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Shell GTL is going to be a big part of the solution. It's not available yet but give it a year and it will be making a difference, especially for buses, HGVs and the like.

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25 minutes ago, Lavalas said:

Shell GTL is going to be a big part of the solution. It's not available yet but give it a year and it will be making a difference, especially for buses, HGVs and the like.

Plenty of Gas cars, busses and lorries in Thailand and other EA countries. Why were we not adopting Gas a couple of decades ago?

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1 hour ago, Digsby said:

Fine us, I expect, we've not left the EU yet. That's a rather blasé attitude, rather like the motorist who speeds, thinking "Meh, plenty of points left before a ban". It's not about the penalty, or even the law, but acting in a socially responsible manner.

Disclaimer: though I observe speed limits in built-up areas (even the 20mph ones) and am usually within 5mph of them on either side, I do break them, especially on the motorway. I view them as guidance to complement my judgement of what speed is safe, with the letter of the law behind because otherwise irresponsible people would ignore them. I think that's a sensible approach for a sensible person. I don't fear the penalty, but the consequence of driving at an unsafe speed. It's the ones who drive at 40mph whether it's a 30 zone or 60 that do my head in - either they zoom off in front or you're stuck behind them.

My point being, even if speed limits were not enforceable, I would observe them fairly fastidiously while allowing some judgement on my part. So it should be with pollution: leaving the EU may make us legally free to pollute as much as we like, that doesn't mean it's right to do so.

Well said, even if we switch all the dirty diesel cars to electric, if all that power comes from Nuclear we may just be swapping one pollutant for another.

We have too many political tickbox exercises - X is bad so lets switch over to Y without thinking through the consequences

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1 minute ago, Northern Welsh Midlander said:

Plenty of Gas cars, busses and lorries in Thailand and other EA countries. Why were we not adopting Gas a couple of decades ago?

For the avoidance of doubt, GTL is liquid and runs in existing diesal engines. Apologies if you'd gathered that already.

I don't know why we haven't used gas more. Would be interested to hear the reasons. 

I agree with Pieman Pieface. It isn't just a problem because 'the EU says it is and they have loads of stupid laws and we're leaving anyway'. It's a big problem regardless..

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17 minutes ago, Lavalas said:

For the avoidance of doubt, GTL is liquid and runs in existing diesal engines. Apologies if you'd gathered that already.

I don't know why we haven't used gas more. Would be interested to hear the reasons. 

I agree with Pieman Pieface. It isn't just a problem because 'the EU says it is and they have loads of stupid laws and we're leaving anyway'. It's a big problem regardless..

Yep I was aware of the process.

Just seems mad to go 20 years down the path of diesel to then go back to Gas in a round about way.

Genuinely wondered since I visited China/Thailand in 2009. Safety? Distribution? Availability? Would love to know.

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1 hour ago, Habeas Domus said:

Well said, even if we switch all the dirty diesel cars to electric, if all that power comes from Nuclear we may just be swapping one pollutant for another.

We have too many political tickbox exercises - X is bad so lets switch over to Y without thinking through the consequences

I'm with you I think, it's not the responsibility of the government to lower pollution, but it falls on their shoulders because we won't take it upon ourselves, so we're left with regulations and laws to change behaviours that might end up counter productive - like the speed bumps oracle mentions.

I drive a diesel car by the way. I was under the impression they were good - but hey I gave up having a car at all for 15 years for environmental reasons, I'm sure my carbon footprint averages out lower than most (by a long shot not just for that reason).

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5 minutes ago, Digsby said:

I drive a diesel car by the way. I was under the impression they were good

The devil is always in the detail, some diesels will be better than others.

In general diesels are great if you do a high mileage and keep the car for quite a few years so that the extra manufacturing cost of the engine has time to pay for itself.

But when the majority of people buy cars with PCPs, use them for the school run (short journeys) and hand them back after 3 years all those benefits disappear.

If the govt really wanted to be enviromentally friendly they would force all PCP contracts to be for a minimum of 5 years so that people would be swapping cars less often, dont hold your breath waiting for the car industry to get behind that one though.

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5 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said:

The devil is always in the detail, some diesels will be better than others.

In general diesels are great if you do a high mileage and keep the car for quite a few years so that the extra manufacturing cost of the engine has time to pay for itself.

But when the majority of people buy cars with PCPs, use them for the school run (short journeys) and hand them back after 3 years all those benefits disappear.

If the govt really wanted to be enviromentally friendly they would force all PCP contracts to be for a minimum of 5 years so that people would be swapping cars less often, dont hold your breath waiting for the car industry to get behind that one though.

Thanks. Well it's 10 years old and I've averaged 43mpg over the 3 I've had it. That's respectable, eh?

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1 hour ago, 200p said:

You can only reduce pollution by reducing the population.

Rubbish. That's the only way without anyone changing their behaviour, yes (well apart from the behaviour of being alive), but we could massively reduce pollution with the current population if people were willing to live their lives differently. Unfortunately it would involve the plebs becoming more wealthy and self sufficient- we must have continuous consumption prevent that.

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If Scientists are correct and the sea does rise due to man made pollution and habitat destruction (rain forest for palm oil) Then huge areas of the UK will be under water. Don't worry the government are on the case, 1)scrap rules 2) Build more airport runways 3) Allow fracking 4) Increase population for mad gains.. Genius.. I actually think they would burn their Granny for money..

The potential for sea level rise is enormous. This is because the ice caps - Greenland and Antarctic - contain huge amounts of fresh water - around 70% of all the freshwater on Earth. Estimates suggest that if the Greenland ice sheet was to melt away to nothing, sea levels would rise around 6 metres. To put that a different way, a loss of just one per cent of the Greenland ice cap would result in a sea level rise of 6cm. 

If the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) were to melt, this would add around 6 metres to sea levels. If the East Antarctic Ice Sheet (EAIS) were to melt as well, seas would rise by around 70 metres.

In a process that is accelerating, all three ice caps are losing mass. While nobody is suggesting any of the ice caps will melt away to nothing, only a small amount of melting would cause great problems.

A 1% loss of ice from these three sources would produce a likely increase in sea levels of around 76cm. With the thermal expansion implied by such melting, and contributions from melting glaciers, the oceans would actually rise far more.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/sea-level-rise-predictions.htm

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