Shannon

[SarahBell]

I watched The Moorside last night and could only think that there is a young woman out there, aged now about 18, who could be sat watching that and wondering how all that happened. 


 

[Frank Hovis]

I did think the mother, Karen Matthews, was incredibly villified at the time because of the ongoing "find Maddie" campaign with all the sympathy turning into vicious spleen.

If she had done this at a different time, even though caught out, it wouldn't have been such a huge news story.  

[Sgt Hartman]

Just now, Frank Hovis said:

I did think the mother, Karen Matthews, was incredibly villified at the time because of the ongoing "find Maddie" campaign with all the sympathy turning into vicious spleen.

If she had done this at a different time, even though caught out, it wouldn't have been such a huge news story.  

Ohh, I dunno..

Drugging your kid and getting half the town to go go look for her while she's stuffed under a bed is up there with some of the most outrageous scum behaviour I've ever read about.

Deservedly crucified IMO.

[Bossybabe]

I hope that Shannon, who was put into the care of the council, may be unaware of the significance of what happened to her...after all, genetically she didn't come from the brainiest stock.

[Economic Exile]

I watched it. Couldn't believe it when Karen Matthews got up and danced to the police woman's ringtone because she loved the song! Thought the actress done a good job portraying Matthews.

The McCanns have been moaning about the drama being insensitive blah blah blah to their predicament. I have no sympathy for them because they went out and left their young children unsupervised.

Just hope Shannon is doing ok in life away from her unfit mother.

 

[The Masked Tulip]

Programmes like this make me feel guilty about all the times I gave my parents grief - I had no idea how lucky I was compared to people like Shannon.

[Battenberg]

13 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

I did think the mother, Karen Matthews, was incredibly villified at the time because of the ongoing "find Maddie" campaign with all the sympathy turning into vicious spleen.

If she had done this at a different time, even though caught out, it wouldn't have been such a huge news story.  

But wasn't part of Matthews motivation brought about by the attention the McGann's were getting. I'm not sure the incident would have occurred if Madeline hadn't gone missing.

What I remember most vividly about it at the time is how she gave a statement to the press outside her front gate. I remember thinking it was a bit fishy and possibly unprecedented that it wasn't an official behind a table type press conference. It reminded me of the way that Ian Huntley had made himself a suspect in his willingness to cooperate and speak to the camera.

[Sgt Hartman]

7 minutes ago, Battenberg said:

But wasn't part of Matthews motivation brought about by the attention the McGann's were getting. I'm not sure the incident would have occurred if Madeline hadn't gone missing.

What I remember most vividly about it at the time is how she gave a statement to the press outside her front gate. I remember thinking it was a bit fishy and possibly unprecedented that it wasn't an official behind a table type press conference. It reminded me of the way that Ian Huntley had made himself a suspect in his willingness to cooperate and speak to the camera.

Interesting article on that very interview here:

Mark Simpson: How Karen Matthews made a fool out of me - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38906967

[crashmonitor]

12 hours ago, Economic Exile said:

I watched it. Couldn't believe it when Karen Matthews got up and danced to the police woman's ringtone because she loved the song! Thought the actress done a good job portraying Matthews.

The McCanns have been moaning about the drama being insensitive blah blah blah to their predicament. I have no sympathy for them because they went out and left their young children unsupervised.

Just hope Shannon is doing ok in life away from her unfit mother.

 

Didn't watch it but I agree the actress looks the part from dipping into iplayer. It's difficult to appear tough and chavie when you are probably not in real life.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08dxvxb/the-moorside-series-1-episode-1

[newbonic]

My wife knows someone who used to live on that estate in Dewsbury. Her mate hates this docu drama because she says it makes the denizens of the estate look very very bad (and I guess by extension her, because although she's normal she also used to live there).

If TV companies are covering 'real people' they do routinely stitch them up though, and white chavs are still an acceptable target.

Not watched it myself.

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, newbonic said:

My wife knows someone who used to live on that estate in Dewsbury. Her mate hates this docu drama because she says it makes the denizens of the estate look very very bad (and I guess by extension her, because although she's normal she also used to live there).

If TV companies are covering 'real people' they do routinely stitch them up though, and white chavs are still an acceptable target.

Not watched it myself.

A fair portion are these days.

Compared to my childhood, when most people on council estates worked, the movement to basically full-time benefit dossers has been a fckign disaster for all involved - tax payer, claimaint and the kids.

Most people are now like fully grown babies. No qualifications, no appetite for work, no ability to get on with people bar shouting and falling out.

[Sledgehead]

What it should do, but hasn't done, is remove the ridiculous inverted-intellectual snobbery that exists in the UK.

The notion, that bright people will pull the wool over your eyes, has always been a fallacy. Yet the public are always more accepting and trusting of overt thickos like Joey Essex.

They forget that courts require means, motive and opportunity for a reason. Just because you are bright enough to defraud someone, doesn't mean you are any more inclined to than a stupid person.

The trust Karen Matthews' friends and family placed in her was undoubtedly amplified by her dim-wittedness. What transpired should be a lesson to us all.

We want the best footballers on our team. Why do we keep criticizing our leaders for attending Oxbridge colleges?

[SarahBell]

3 hours ago, newbonic said:

My wife knows someone who used to live on that estate in Dewsbury. Her mate hates this docu drama because she says it makes the denizens of the estate look very very bad (and I guess by extension her, because although she's normal she also used to live there).

I thought it has so far made the majority of the estate out to be kind, caring people who would quite literally scour the earth to help you find your kid.


Hate to link to the snu but there you go.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2814032/kate-gerry-mccann-brand-the-moorside-shannon-matthews-insensitive/

 

[wherebee]

The truely negative thing for me with that story was how it higlighted - once again - we can see that a complete drain on society has had seven children.  Meanwhile, I know almost a dozen intelligent women who will never have kids now as they did the career/**** carousel thing too long.

We are choosing DISEUGENICS - helping the worst in a population to breed, rather than the best.

 

All very depressing.

[LC1]

4 minutes ago, wherebee said:

The truely negative thing for me with that story was how it higlighted - once again - we can see that a complete drain on society has had seven children.  Meanwhile, I know almost a dozen intelligent women who will never have kids now as they did the career/**** carousel thing too long.

We are choosing DISEUGENICS - helping the worst in a population to breed, rather than the best.

 

All very depressing.

It does seem perverse to publicly fund the uneducated and jobless to have lots of kids when they otherwise probably wouldn't. I don't subscribe to genetic determinism, but cultural and behavioural science generally dictates that you're reproducing more of the same - hardly a good investment for society. 

[Sgt Hartman]

I do quite a bit of work on a few estates in a town that is regularly in the top three most deprived in England list and it's been quite an education. 

For the most part the people who live in them are genuinely good people, actually I'd go as far as to say they are exceptionally nice people who'd give you their last quid if it was the decent and right thing to do. Most don't have a pot to piss in but you'll be treated like a welcome guest in their house and it's a heartening thing to see.

Then there are the wasters and all they seem to excel in is making life a bloody misery for the above sort. They give precisely zero f*cks about anyone or anything and no funding or government scheme is going to make the slightest bit of difference I'm afraid.

Unfortunately the latter kick up almighty shit and get far more funding and 'support' than the former who tend to be too proud or civic to ask for it and the attention is skewed towards them.

What you do about these people I don't know but a start would be stopping the endless cycle of kids for benefits, that has been an unmitigated disaster and has resulted in hundreds of kids living in squalor who just turn into clones of their useless parents. 

[wherebee]

25 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

I'm quite hopeful this can be changed. Firstly it hasn't always been like this. Secondly, genes and outcomes are quite plastic regardless of where one started from. Listen to the Jesuits. What is needed is hope and concerted effort. It doesn't just mean money. In fact, ensuring the correct incentives as part of the overall package would perhaps mean less money.

The basic trouble is the design of the built environment, the economy, poor incentives and a basic lack of hope and belief that we can change anything. 

If poor black inner city kids in London can be raised above the average white kid educationally thru intervention and lots of resources, it shows what really can be done in short periods of time.

Wrong.  Increasingly, genes are everything that makes an individual, family, and society work.  As an example, there has never been a successful developed society with <85 IQ average.  You just can't run a complex society with low intelligence populations.

I'm only hopeful if infectious diseases come back and outrace antibiotics.  It will kill off more low intelligence/low culture individuals, proportionately.  In a democracy where everyone 'thinks of the children', you can never have a sensible discussion.

My solution would be that you only get any benefits from the state if you have implanted contraceptives. You want kids - fine, but no child benefit, no housing benefit, no anything.

[spyguy]

4 minutes ago, wherebee said:

Wrong.  Increasingly, genes are everything that makes an individual, family, and society work.  As an example, there has never been a successful developed society with <85 IQ average.  You just can't run a complex society with low intelligence populations.

I'm only hopeful if infectious diseases come back and outrace antibiotics.  It will kill off more low intelligence/low culture individuals, proportionately.  In a democracy where everyone 'thinks of the children', you can never have a sensible discussion.

My solution would be that you only get any benefits from the state if you have implanted contraceptives. You want kids - fine, but no child benefit, no housing benefit, no anything.

50/50.

Id speculate that genes can give you a head start.

But I think nutrition and interaction as a child play more of role with humans.

Sadly, the kids will get none - poor genes, sh1t food, and brought up by the TV.

Partner works at a school. She can tell kids that have been brought up by the Telly.

UKGOV is paying these people 1k+/month in the vain hope that they will 'do the right thing' by their kids. The dont. Booze busters, Sky and the local kebab shot get the lot.

If you want to help poor kids than put a good, well funded kitchen in all schools and insist on school dinners.

At the moment, school dinners are sh1t as the funding goes direct to parents on benefits.

[Will!]

36 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

I'm quite hopeful this can be changed. Firstly it hasn't always been like this.

Yes, it has.  Charles Booth's Life and Labour of the People in London illustrates that.

[Mrs Bear]

14 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I recommend you read this. Pre natal environment is particularly important and improvements in intelligence accumulate epigenetically and culturally down the generations.

Just ask the Viking thugs who came to rape and plunder in 1066....To this day it is known they have a very high % of the kids (now bright kids) at Eton and onto Oxbridge and represent many of the cultured elite of this country.

By the author of The Diet Myth....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Identically-Different-Change-Your-Genes/dp/1780220901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486660634&sr=8-1&keywords=You+can+change+your+genes

 

I've often thought that the Vikings who ended up colonising other countries must have had incredibly tough genes anyway, to survive sea voyages in longboats, followed by bloody battles.  The weaker ones would surely have been weeded out earlier.  And you'd surely have needed a good helping of intelligence/cunning to make a success of all that.  Can't imagine that Erik Bloodaxe would have had too much time for Erik Dhurr-IForgotToSharpenMyAxe. 

[spyguy]

16 hours ago, hotairmail said:

I recommend you read this. Pre natal environment is particularly important and improvements in intelligence accumulate epigenetically and culturally down the generations.

Just ask the Viking thugs who came to rape and plunder in 1066....To this day it is known they have a very high % of the kids (now bright kids) at Eton and onto Oxbridge and represent many of the cultured elite of this country.

By the author of The Diet Myth....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Identically-Different-Change-Your-Genes/dp/1780220901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486660634&sr=8-1&keywords=You+can+change+your+genes

 

Not sure about Viking genes in general. Evidence seems a bit murky.

I from my travels that I run into more tall, stocky people in rural Yorkshire and the NE than I do in the South.

Agian, not very scietific. But I m not 100% of DNA ancestor science.

[Rare Bear]

3 hours ago, Mrs Bear said:

I've often thought that the Vikings who ended up colonising other countries must have had incredibly tough genes anyway, to survive sea voyages in longboats, followed by bloody battles.  The weaker ones would surely have been weeded out earlier.  And you'd surely have needed a good helping of intelligence/cunning to make a success of all that.  Can't imagine that Erik Bloodaxe would have had too much time for Erik Dhurr-IForgotToSharpenMyAxe. 

Back in Ireland, about 30-35 years ago, a friend of mine aske a gypsy 'How come your all such big strong men?'

The answer' 'The weak ones die'

[Frank Hovis]

21 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

What it should do, but hasn't done, is remove the ridiculous inverted-intellectual snobbery that exists in the UK.

The notion, that bright people will pull the wool over your eyes, has always been a fallacy. Yet the public are always more accepting and trusting of overt thickos like Joey Essex.

They forget that courts require means, motive and opportunity for a reason. Just because you are bright enough to defraud someone, doesn't mean you are any more inclined to than a stupid person.

The trust Karen Matthews' friends and family placed in her was undoubtedly amplified by her dim-wittedness. What transpired should be a lesson to us all.

We want the best footballers on our team. Why do we keep criticizing our leaders for attending Oxbridge colleges?

I don't think we do. The major objection is that people get into positions of power through wealth, privilege, and connections rather than through intelligence, ability, hard work, and integrity.  Hence the criticism of the Eton clique under Cameron: several of the best leaders of this country just "happened" to be at the same school. Right. It's not Oxbridge criticism IMO and I would be sensitive to that as I went there.

I also am aware of how a supportive family can accelerate you and vice versa; I know people who went to unis several clicks below their ability levels because they hadn't really had parental support for their studies. So whilst I would agree that the academic best at 18 do go to Oxbridge they are not the entirety of the academic best at 21 as the top people at other unis also reach that level.

So whilst I am fine with half the cabinet having gone to Oxbridge I would think that there was something wrong with the selection system if it was the whole cabinet.

[The XYY Man]

10 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I don't think we do. The major objection is that people get into positions of power through wealth, privilege, and connections rather than through intelligence, ability, hard work, and integrity.  Hence the criticism of the Eton clique under Cameron: several of the best leaders of this country just "happened" to be at the same school. Right. It's not Oxbridge criticism IMO and I would be sensitive to that as I went there.

I also am aware of how a supportive family can accelerate you and vice versa; I know people who went to unis several clicks below their ability levels because they hadn't really had parental support for their studies. So whilst I would agree that the academic best at 18 do go to Oxbridge they are not the entirety of the academic best at 21 as the top people at other unis also reach that level.

So whilst I am fine with half the cabinet having gone to Oxbridge I would think that there was something wrong with the selection system if it was the whole cabinet.

The key word in your post is highlighted.

Without integrity, then it doesn't matter what other attributes you possess, you ultimately have nothing Frank.

And that simple truth applies no matter what educational institute you ended-up at.

 

XYY

                                                                                                               

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

[One-percent]

9 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

The key word in your post is highlighted.

Without integrity, then it doesn't matter what other attributes you possess, you ultimately have nothing Frank.

And that simple truth applies no matter what educational institute you ended-up at.

 

XYY

 

                                                                                                               

 

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

 

You and I may think this but the evidence seems to show that if you wish to claw your way to the top, then integrity is the very last thing you need to ensure success