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Frank Hovis

Air pollution? Just make people move

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I'm undecided between this idea being brilliant or bonkers.

I've been at lights on busy junctions in major cities and wondered how bad it must be like to live there. In that situation there probably is a case for moving the people, flattening the buildings, and planting some trees.

There isn't however a lot like this in Cornwall.  It tends to be narrow trunk roads going through villages meaning that the traffic slows and jams form and the reason is the village being there in the first place so the roads narrow and turn, there are parked cars and lights. Surely that's why bypasses are built.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-38799763

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3 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

I thought that this thread was going to be about making people walk instead of taking their cars :)

 

At the risk of thread diversion I require no incentive to walk as I'm not actually that keen on driving; too many rules and too much attention required. I prefer to walk as it takes much less concentration.

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15 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

At the risk of thread diversion I require no incentive to walk as I'm not actually that keen on driving; too many rules and too much attention required. I prefer to walk as it takes much less concentration.

Not on roads without pavements, blind spots no lighting and traffic travelling over speed limit......Got to have correct clothing, lights and your wits about you plus full concentration.;)

15 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

Some places in certain areas, often in large towns and cities where traffic is always labouring at traffic lights in low bucket areas, can easily smell and see the pollution, net curtains over open windows soon turn black and lungs notice the poor air and make it very clear all is not well.

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48 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I'm undecided between this idea being brilliant or bonkers.

I've been at lights on busy junctions in major cities and wondered how bad it must be like to live there. In that situation there probably is a case for moving the people, flattening the buildings, and planting some trees.

There isn't however a lot like this in Cornwall.  It tends to be narrow trunk roads going through villages meaning that the traffic slows and jams form and the reason is the village being there in the first place so the roads narrow and turn, there are parked cars and lights. Surely that's why bypasses are built.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-38799763

Looks like a cunning wheeze to buy up premium town center locations using compulsory purchase orders and dump the current residents into shabby, inconvenient, new build estates. 

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Im becoming more and more anti ICE in towns and urban envionments.

There's just too many cars, stuck in traffic, chucking fumes out. It really is terrible in a lot of towns.

Mix that with the odd weird weather and you have localised smug.

Diesels - bar buses, which are running hot + clean, should be banned from cities.

Any town or city above 500L should have a congestion charge.

 

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12 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Im becoming more and more anti ICE in towns and urban envionments.

There's just too many cars, stuck in traffic, chucking fumes out. It really is terrible in a lot of towns.

Mix that with the odd weird weather and you have localised smug.

Diesels - bar buses, which are running hot + clean, should be banned from cities.

Any town or city above 500L should have a congestion charge.

 

I was surprised moving back to London that CNG had not been adopted for use in buses. You get a 50-60% reduction in Nox and minimal particulates.

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11 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Any town or city above 500L should have a congestion charge.

Without getting into whether that is a good idea in principle (plus I hate the name,  it should be "environmental tax" if that is the true purpose)..   in practice it sounds very confusing and ripe for mal-administration.

If they do move to that sort of system then they really will need a centrally run national network monitoring cars fitted with mandatory GPS trackers with a sort of pay per mile system where inner city miles cost a lot more than rural or motorway miles.

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7 minutes ago, Kurt Barlow said:

I was surprised moving back to London that CNG had not been adopted for use in buses. You get a 50-60% reduction in Nox and minimal particulates.

In think they are looking at DME for buses too

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4 minutes ago, libspero said:

Without getting into whether that is a good idea in principle (plus I hate the name,  it should be "environmental tax" if that is the true purpose)..   in practice it sounds very confusing and ripe for mal-administration.

If they do move to that sort of system then they really will need a centrally run national network monitoring cars fitted with mandatory GPS trackers with a sort of pay per mile system where inner city miles cost a lot more than rural or motorway miles.

Just by chance (and it's only a coincidence I'm sure) all new cars are going to have mandatory GPS from 2018. 

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/ecall-all-new-cars-april-2018

This system is of course about safety rather than revenue raising. I'm sure that the idea of using it as a basis for taxation hasn't occurred to them at all :)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, libspero said:

Without getting into whether that is a good idea in principle (plus I hate the name,  it should be "environmental tax" if that is the true purpose)..   in practice it sounds very confusing and ripe for mal-administration.

If they do move to that sort of system then they really will need a centrally run national network monitoring cars fitted with mandatory GPS trackers with a sort of pay per mile system where inner city miles cost a lot more than rural or motorway miles.

Im OK with environmental tax.

You just need to stop people jumping into cars and heading into the centre of urban areas. Force them out and onto pblic transport and the edge of town FFS.

You cna make the charge variable, related to levels of congestion.

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14 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

Just by chance (and it's only a coincidence I'm sure) all new cars are going to have mandatory GPS from 2018. 

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/ecall-all-new-cars-april-2018

This system is of course about safety rather than revenue raising. I'm sure that the idea of using it as a basis for taxation hasn't occurred to them at all :)

 

 

That's only in the EU; whoever they are.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Surely that's why bypasses are built.

Bypasses are built when you've past the "we've already fvcked things up too badly for words" stage. Any time a bypass or motorway or similar gets built it's an admission of complete and utter failure and not a clue how to solve it, with building crap as the only option left that occurs to anyone.

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36 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

That's only in the EU; whoever they are.

:)

I think we'll end up with it anyway. For safety, of course. Won't you please think of the children etc. 

Then bam. All cars tracked always. It's a big state wet dream. 

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1 minute ago, SpectrumFX said:

:)

I think we'll end up with it anyway. For safety, of course. Won't you please think of the children etc. 

Then bam. All cars tracked always. It's a big state wet dream. 

Tracked by your mobile phone, turn off your mobile phone or leave it at home and then tracked by your car.

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1 minute ago, canbuywontbuy said:

What do people expect when the population is rising by close to 1% a year? More people = more cars on the same roads.  It ain't rocket science.

Build more roads! We need to invest in infrastructure blah blah, then ten years later need to build yet more roads (and houses, and schools, and hospitals etc.), and build them quickly and cheaply, so they almost inevitably end up being rather obnoxious affairs, and still the population increases, so the cycle continues, the country gets less and less pleasant to live in. That cycle must be broken, and as soon as possible. Those who say "we need this, it's not much in the grand scheme of things" are generally right about the current situation but they overlook the fact that that isn't it, done and dusted for good.

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6 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Build more roads! We need to invest in infrastructure blah blah, then ten years later need to build yet more roads (and houses, and schools, and hospitals etc.), and build them quickly and cheaply, so they almost inevitably end up being rather obnoxious affairs, and still the population increases, so the cycle continues, the country gets less and less pleasant to live in. That cycle must be broken, and as soon as possible. Those who say "we need this, it's not much in the grand scheme of things" are generally right about the current situation but they overlook the fact that that isn't it, done and dusted for good.

The thing is - they don't even do that! I get your point that it's concreting over more and more land, but that's arguably a better solution than the current one where infrastructure isn't improved, yet the population grows. So you get the problems you have in Cornwall (of all places!).  The solution is to manage the population and NOT concrete over more land and NOT put more strain on existing infrastructure, but the UK can't - it needs those GDP gainz.

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16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Build more roads! We need to invest in infrastructure blah blah, then ten years later need to build yet more roads (and houses, and schools, and hospitals etc.), and build them quickly and cheaply, so they almost inevitably end up being rather obnoxious affairs, and still the population increases, so the cycle continues, the country gets less and less pleasant to live in. That cycle must be broken, and as soon as possible. Those who say "we need this, it's not much in the grand scheme of things" are generally right about the current situation but they overlook the fact that that isn't it, done and dusted for good.

Building moer roads just creates more traffic queues waiting to get int towns + cities.

First step in the UK should be remove benefits from non nationals. The UK is expensive and crowded, dont enocurage more people who cannot support themselves.

 

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4 hours ago, spyguy said:

Im OK with environmental tax.

You just need to stop people jumping into cars and heading into the centre of urban areas. Force them out and onto pblic transport and the edge of town FFS.

You cna make the charge variable, related to levels of congestion.

I think you have to decide what your motivation is..  if it is air pollution,  then people jumping in cars is not the problem,  the problem is the cars need to be cleaner (or electric).

If you are just concerned about the number of people living and working in large urban areas,  that is probably more an issue with urbanisation and overpopulation in general.

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2 minutes ago, libspero said:

I think you have to decide what your motivation is..  if it is air pollution,  then people jumping in cars is not the problem,  the problem is the cars need to be cleaner (or electric).

If you are just concerned about the number of people living and working in large urban areas,  that is probably more an issue with urbanisation and overpopulation in general.

Ah, I did flag ICEs on my earlier post.

Equally, I think the UK shoud onkly be allowing people in who can support themselves and pay for the public services they use + a bit more.

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We kinda did this already as a nation.

But....we moved the pollution to china and kept the people here.  Everyone felt better about the clean air act and slaps on back all round, whilst ignoring the worse pollution overall created as a result.

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1 hour ago, canbuywontbuy said:

The thing is - they don't even do that! I get your point that it's concreting over more and more land, but that's arguably a better solution than the current one where infrastructure isn't improved, yet the population grows. So you get the problems you have in Cornwall (of all places!).  The solution is to manage the population and NOT concrete over more land and NOT put more strain on existing infrastructure, but the UK can't - it needs those GDP gainz.

It's got to get pretty bad before I'd go that far and find the problems more objectionable than the "solution". With no willingness to properly address the issue and just continue the decline I've reached the point where I'd rather say "sod it, I'm looking forward to it all exploding" rather than putting up with an ever-increasing number of unpleasant fixes. All the "improving" infrastructure as the lesser evil approach gets you is the same eventual explosion but with everywhere rather more unpleasant, but it won't reach that point within our lifetimes. GDP growth is a pretty unpleasant hard drug.

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4 minutes ago, wherebee said:

We kinda did this already as a nation.

But....we moved the pollution to china and kept the people here.  Everyone felt better about the clean air act and slaps on back all round, whilst ignoring the worse pollution overall created as a result.

In a similar vein I've often thought that we never got rid of Victorian working conditions, we just outsourced them.

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4 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

What do people expect when the population is rising by close to 1% a year? More people = more cars on the same roads.  It ain't rocket science.

It's not as simple as that either though. In 1960 there were approx 2 million cars, now there are approx 30 million, the population has not mirrored that increase. It's about the extent to which everything revolves around the general idea that cars should be dominant and catered for as a priority. Supermarkets and other big shops successfully outsourced the 'last miles' local delivery problem to willing consumers via out of town malls where the consumer pays to collect via private car use.

The notion of freedom that the spectacular rise in car ownership was sold on has inevitably foundered as it was ultimately backstopped with the view that everyone else should not be afforded the same treatment.

Also, with rising house prices the dual income household has become more prevalent, necessitating potentially double (or triple) the cars on the road in some instances. My in laws do more committing now they have retired than when they were at work, providing free childcare and allowing another two cars in turn to commute to their respective jobs. Basically tripled the road miles of a single working household during a key part of rush hour. This has a massive impact on local traffic and pollution. 

The population rises are the icing on the cake.

How we get out of this is anyone's guess, it's not just about ICE tech in towns in my view, although eradicating diesels in particular would be helpful.

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