Are the EU immigrants going home ?

[Lord D'arcy Pew]

1 hour ago, canbuywontbuy said:

Serious question: why would they go home? May has already promised an "amnesty" of residency to EU migrants now in the UK.  Anyone who thinks the UK has the means and the will to forcibly kick out EU migrants post-Brexit is unbelievably deluded - that will never ever happen.  EU workers leaving now are walking away from a free lunch. 

Stop their Housing Benefit, Tax Credits, Child benefit and we will see.

Working for cash at a car wash, giving a cut to the gang master, then faking the true income and having the British tax payer pick up the bill. Hopefully soon gone.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Lord D'arcy Pew

[the gardener]

I know umpteen EU furreners. In fact I shall be drinking with a Slovak tonight. Also there are two small Slovaks in my house right now singing Slovak nursery rhymes, along with my French wife and our 3 half French children. Oh I also forgot the other 2 half-Frenchy kids we are also looking after, not to mention the Italian student who rents a room from us. That's 9 furreners in my house right now. None of them are leaving the country to 'go home' since they are home.

Some of the furrener parents I know are looking at filling in the 85 page form but I've told them not to be so silly.

[reddog]

31 minutes ago, kibuc said:

I understand the point and, quite frankly, disagree with it to some extent - after all, we have as much saying in who our ancestors were and what they did as we have in picking our place and time of birth. I'd feel rather embarrassed being credited for my great-grandfather fighting the Nazis  (don't know if he really did, by the way) or my father taking down communism (he totally did not). Anyway, what you're saying seems to be based more on contribution than nationality. I'm all for gratifying people for the value they bring to the society regardless of their passport.

But do you not think that if a person can arrive in a country and immediately get all of the rights without having taken on any of the responsibilities for a sustained period of time it breaks down the whole of society?

 

RE: Switzerland's role in ww2, it was the country that had the biggest army mobilisation, with 1/3 of the population being mobilised, it was extremely well defended and the 'tobelerone line' (anti tank barriers) is still visible on the Swiss border.  I have read 'Berlin Diary' by William L Shirer (written by an American correspondent in real time before America entered ww2) in that book, he heavily mocked how well France was defended relative to Switzerland. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by reddog

[kibuc]

11 minutes ago, reddog said:

But do you not think that if a person can arrive in a country and immediately get all of the rights without having taken on any of the responsibilities for a sustained period of time it breaks down the whole of society?

As I said, I believe contribution should be key. Free riders - imported and home-bred alike - are detrimental to economy and have a demoralizing effect on working population. Then again, given this intrinsic delay between contributing and benefiting from it, it would only be fair if the country I'm leaving made up for my lack of contribution to the country I'm moving to. A pipe dream, I know.

There's also an issue of those who simply cannot contribute, most notably children. We're throwing resources their way without them having contributed a single bit, because it seems a right thing to do (economically, socially or morally). I don't think they should be punished by having that taken away from them just because someone else (a.k.a. their parents) didn't tow the line.

[Hectors House]

54 minutes ago, Agentimmo said:

Bad example. The Swiss have been neutral in recent wars - so no need to defend the motherland. The father and grandfather would more likely have worked in an office helping to transmit Nazi/Allied cash/assets across the globe.

As for having a stake in the country ? - the sleepy hollow of Zug doesn't seem to have a problem about super-rich Johnny-comes-lately's settling down and having the same rights as old family dynasties.

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, reddog said:

RE: Switzerland's role in ww2, it was the country that had the biggest army mobilisation, with 1/3 of the population being mobilised, it was extremely well defended and the 'tobelerone line' (anti tank barriers) is still visible on the Swiss border.  I have read 'Berlin Diary' by William L Shirer (written by an American correspondent in real time before America entered ww2) in that book, he heavily mocked how well France was defended relative to Switzerland. 

 

2

The Swiss have always taken their neutrality seriously which is why they invest and have done in the past in their defence. The big blot on their copybook happened during WWII at the Wauwilermoos internment (prison) camp which was run by André Béguin who was a Nazis sympathiser, spent time in Germany dressed in Nazis uniform and signed his letters Heil Hitler. he treated all internees of all nationalities including German harshly worse than POW's in Germany. He was arrested and sentenced for 42 months by a Swiss Military court after the war. The United States wanted to prosecute him for war crimes but it never happened.

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited January 19, 2017 by Hectors House

[reddog]

33 minutes ago, Hectors House said:

 

The Swiss have always taken their neutrality seriously which is why they invest and have done in the past in their defence. The big blot on their copybook happened during WWII at the Wauwilermoos internment (prison) camp which was run by André Béguin who was a Nazis sympathiser, spent time in Germany dressed in Nazis uniform and signed his letters Heil Hitler. he treated all internees of all nationalities including German harshly worse than POW's in Germany. He was arrested and sentenced for 42 months by a Swiss Military court after the war. The United States wanted to prosecute him for war crimes but it never happened.

 

 

 

 

 

  

Wasn't aware of that will have read up on it.  Completely rat holeing this topic but I always thought the biggest blot on their copy book was about to have its 100th anniversary... Certain politicians coluding with the Germans to have Lenin be allowed to move from Zurich back to Russia to take over as leader and get Russia out of WW1

Edited January 19, 2017 by reddog

[richc]

2 hours ago, kibuc said:

As I said, I believe contribution should be key. Free riders - imported and home-bred alike - are detrimental to economy and have a demoralizing effect on working population. Then again, given this intrinsic delay between contributing and benefiting from it, it would only be fair if the country I'm leaving made up for my lack of contribution to the country I'm moving to. A pipe dream, I know.

There's also an issue of those who simply cannot contribute, most notably children. We're throwing resources their way without them having contributed a single bit, because it seems a right thing to do (economically, socially or morally). I don't think they should be punished by having that taken away from them just because someone else (a.k.a. their parents) didn't tow the line.

This whole idea that everything should be based on an individual's contribution makes no sense because many of the investments required for a successful society have a pay-back period that extends beyond one single lifespan.  The belief that everything comes down to the individual is completely naive.  Societies succeed because a generation is willing to invest in the future -- a future that they will not themselves live to see.

[DEATH]

I would be surprised if we got less than another + 2 million EU migrants prior to us brexiting. 

Until we actually leave the EU (2020) they have 100% rights to live here. Don't tell them that though.

[spyguy]

14 hours ago, rollover said:

 

The PM sweetened the pot hoping others would follow.

Thats a strange one.

There';s no balance to Brits/Poles - Poles in the UK outnumber Brits on the UK by 100K:1.

If the UK is withdrawing then EU say in benefits is not really on table.

I take that as a tacit admission that the majority of Poles are benefit tourists.

[spyguy]

14 hours ago, Agentimmo said:

Bad example. The Swiss have been neutral in recent wars - so no need to defend the motherland. The father and grandfather would more likely have worked in an office helping to transmit Nazi/Allied cash/assets across the globe.

As for having a stake in the country ? - the sleepy hollow of Zug doesn't seem to have a problem about super-rich Johnny-comes-lately's settling down and having the same rights as old family dynasties.

Swiss milk foreigners like they milk cows.

As far as 'cannot choose where youare boirn' Yep, thats life dice.

I cannot change the fact Im crp at football so am not a in the Premier League. I dont expect to be picked by Chelsea just as a matter of inclusion.

People make countries. My ancestor contributed to the UK, as I continue to.

None of of upped sticks and legged it to Monaco.

[kibuc]

On 1/20/2017 at 6:47 AM, spyguy said:

I cannot change the fact Im crp at football so am not a in the Premier League. I dont expect to be picked by Chelsea just as a matter of inclusion.

People make countries. My ancestor contributed to the UK, as I continue to.

None of of upped sticks and legged it to Monaco.

Funny you should say that, as I believe it supports my argument to a much greater extent that it does yours. Vast majority of football clubs, being very result-oriented, cannot afford to discriminate foreigners. If, in their eyes, you don't have skills to contribute, you're not getting signed and it won't make any difference that your great-great grandpa scored a hattrick in FA Cup final in 1936. They'll take a skilled guy from Lithuania, Ivory Coast or Korea over you any day, and they prosper, while results of clubs with discriminatory policies like Athletic Bilbao pale in comparison.

Having said that, I agree that life dice are very real and how they roll plays a major role in our lives. More than anything, we're a result of our potential plus upbringing, so whether we actually have what it takes to contribute or not might be beyond our full control. Given all that, why should we top it up with another random - and purely artificial - factor such as nationality?

 

[spyguy]

1 minute ago, kibuc said:

Funny you should say that, as I believe it supports my argument to a much greater extent that it does yours. Vast majority of football clubs, being very result-oriented, cannot afford to discriminate foreigners. If, in their eyes, you don't have skills to contribute, you're not getting signed and it won't make any difference that your great-great grandpa scored a hattrick in FA Cup final in 1936. They'll take a skilled guy from Lithuania, Ivory Coast or Korea over you any day, and they prosper, while results of clubs with discriminatory policies like Athletic Bilbao pale in comparison.

Having said that, I agree that life dice are very real and how they roll plays a major role in our lives. More than anything, we're a result of our potential plus upbringing, so whether we actually have what it takes to contribute or not might be beyond our full control. Given all that, why should we top it up with another random - and purely artificial - factor such as nationality?

 

Nut we are not taking in skilled foreigners! Thats the problem!!!!

80% of immigrants are drawing tax during their working lives, never mind when they retire and become really expensive.

 

Countries need to know where they break even on people and families. The majority of countries insist on skills, job offers and bringing cash in. We dont.

The States get Arab Drs. We get TB ridden Mipuris peasants.

 

 

[kibuc]

Just now, spyguy said:

Nut we are not taking in skilled foreigners! Thats the problem!!!!

80% of immigrants are drawing tax during their working lives, never mind when they retire and become really expensive.

 

Countries need to know where they break even on people and families. The majority of countries insist on skills, job offers and bringing cash in. We dont.

The States get Arab Drs. We get TB ridden Mipuris peasants.

 

 

We're discussing two different things then. I've been talking about contribution-based society as opposed to the nationality-based one. To be frank, it looked very much like you were in on the same subject, too, as you were very quick to bring up your ancestors' achievements. I don't know how that's supposed to play with your latest post, which seems like a sudden change of tune.

If indeed you're taking in free riders in disproportionate amounts, then it's obviously detrimental to the economy, but each of them is in no way any more harmful that any of your home-grown lazy ass benefit abusers with centuries-long ancestry line reaching Albert the Great. Yet you seem to hate the former much more than the latter.

[One-percent]

1 hour ago, kibuc said:

We're discussing two different things then. I've been talking about contribution-based society as opposed to the nationality-based one. To be frank, it looked very much like you were in on the same subject, too, as you were very quick to bring up your ancestors' achievements. I don't know how that's supposed to play with your latest post, which seems like a sudden change of tune.

If indeed you're taking in free riders in disproportionate amounts, then it's obviously detrimental to the economy, but each of them is in no way any more harmful that any of your home-grown lazy ass benefit abusers with centuries-long ancestry line reaching Albert the Great. Yet you seem to hate the former much more than the latter.

But there is not a lot we can do about our homegrown lazy benefit scroungers, I doubt any other country would be daft enough to take them off our hands. That doesn't mean though that we take more from other countries. It surely must be that we say we have enough of our own, we don't need more thanks 

 

   

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, kibuc said:

If indeed you're taking in free riders in disproportionate amounts, then it's obviously detrimental to the economy, but each of them is in no way any more harmful that any of your home-grown lazy ass benefit abusers with centuries-long ancestry line reaching Albert the Great. Yet you seem to hate the former much more than the latter.

One is dealing with our own problems, the other with someone else's problems.

That all said economic concerns in all of this are secondary to me. The biggest, most over-riding concern I've got is that I despise anything that pushes up the population in a country that would be a lot more pleasant to live in (and involve a lot less damage to it) with far fewer. And yes, I include people who have more than two children no matter how many generations they've lived here for - that's grossly irresponsible. I might not be prepared to tolerate an ethical cost for dealing with that but an economic one is certainly acceptable. The benefit aspect is mostly a problem in my book because it draws people here rather than the money it costs the UK.

[kzb]

Noticed a few odd things shopping this weekend.

No lettuce, broccoli or cucumbers left in Aldi (although tomatoes were 35p for 6-pack, the cheapest I've seen in years).

No lettuce or broccoli in Asda either.

Farm Foods -several freezers were empty.

I know there's a courgette crisis, but it seems stocks of some other goods are running low as well.  Anyone else notices this?

[One-percent]

8 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

One is dealing with our own problems, the other with someone else's problems.

That all said economic concerns in all of this are secondary to me. The biggest, most over-riding concern I've got is that I despise anything that pushes up the population in a country that would be a lot more pleasant to live in (and involve a lot less damage to it) with far fewer. And yes, I include people who have more than two children no matter how many generations they've lived here for - that's grossly irresponsible. I might not be prepared to tolerate an ethical cost for dealing with that but an economic one is certainly acceptable. The benefit aspect is mostly a problem in my book because it draws people here rather than the money it costs the UK.

I don't consider having more than two offspring to be grossly irresponsible if they can be supported with benefits   The problem is that some people seem to be going for larger families as, until,recently, the more you had, the more the state would give you. Now that IS totally irresponsible of the state. 

I agree that we are overpopulated and some sensible thinking needs to be done about it.

[Trampa501]

4 minutes ago, kzb said:

Noticed a few odd things shopping this weekend.

No lettuce, broccoli or cucumbers left in Aldi (although tomatoes were 35p for 6-pack, the cheapest I've seen in years).

No lettuce or broccoli in Asda either.

Farm Foods -several freezers were empty.

I know there's a courgette crisis, but it seems stocks of some other goods are running low as well.  Anyone else notices this?

Been some very cold weather on the continent - even Spain has seen quite a bit of snowy weather. Maybe just that the suppliers are having trouble in shipping it over?

[Riedquat]

15 minutes ago, One-percent said:

I don't consider having more than two offspring to be grossly irresponsible if they can be supported with benefits   The problem is that some people seem to be going for larger families as, until,recently, the more you had, the more the state would give you. Now that IS totally irresponsible of the state. 

I agree that we are overpopulated and some sensible thinking needs to be done about it.

Well yes, some people have one or none, so three isn't that bad. The "if they can be supported..." bit is a secondary concern for me, like I said population levels are far and away my over-riding concern.

MO the sensible approach is to stop immigration and remove all child-related benefits (as you say that's been at least partially dealt with, although admittedly I don't know exactly what the current situation is) and see where that leaves us. Perhaps the benefits should go to people without kids? (if I get accused of self-interest I'll happily give mine to charity, if you can find a non-corrupt one). Doing more than that runs into serious ethical concerns (unless there's some option that I've not thought of).

Anyone who supports a position that causes and / or promotes population growth in the UK is pure, vile, scum.

[One-percent]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Well yes, some people have one or none, so three isn't that bad. The "if they can be supported..." bit is a secondary concern for me, like I said population levels are far and away my over-riding concern.

MO the sensible approach is to stop immigration and remove all child-related benefits (as you say that's been at least partially dealt with, although admittedly I don't know exactly what the current situation is) and see where that leaves us. Perhaps the benefits should go to people without kids? (if I get accused of self-interest I'll happily give mine to charity, if you can find a non-corrupt one). Doing more than that runs into serious ethical concerns (unless there's some option that I've not thought of).

Anyone who supports a position that causes and / or promotes population growth in the UK is pure, vile, scum.

I can't find anything to argue with in this, other than giving benefits to people without kids, although I would think this was tongue in cheek.  The ideal situation for me would be if we reached a state where no benefits were needed by fit, healthy people.  This would take a move back to full employment that paid a living wage.  Then, government subsidies would be for the disabled (but these if possible should be encouraged to work and employers encouraged to support them in working), schooling and the NHS. Nothing more as wages should be sufficient to pay for everything else that is required to live.  It has been achieved in the past but one reason that it isn't today are too many powerful people making too much money off the present system

[the gardener]

24 minutes ago, Trampa501 said:

Been some very cold weather on the continent - even Spain has seen quite a bit of snowy weather. Maybe just that the suppliers are having trouble in shipping it over?

There are serious supply issues in Italy and Spain due to heavy rains and snow. France's agricultural sector had suffered bad harvests too. Courgettes, broccoli, lettuce and the like have been badly affected. All this cold weather, snow, heavy winter rain is due to 2016 being the hottest year on record. Global warming i'nit?

Edited January 23, 2017 by the gardener

[One-percent]

2 minutes ago, the gardener said:

There are serious supply issues in Italy and Spain due to heavy rains and snow. France's agricultural sector had suffered bad harvests too. Courgettes, broccoli, lettuce and the like have been badly affected. All this cold weather, snow, heavy winter rain is due to 2016 being the hottest year on record. Global warming i'nit?

Excuse my ignorance gardener, but isn't it all grown under glass?  If so, I wonder how the poor weather can have such an effect

[kzb]

Just now, One-percent said:

Excuse my ignorance gardener, but isn't it all grown under glass?  If so, I wonder how the poor weather can have such an effect

I was wondering if there could be some sour grapes effect.  Have we gone to the back of the line for EU farm produce?

[Trampa501]

2 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Excuse my ignorance gardener, but isn't it all grown under glass?  If so, I wonder how the poor weather can have such an effect

Maybe the lorry bringing it across is stuck in a snowdrift in the mountains? Maybe the fruit pickers can't get into to work? Given how much a small smattering of snow brings England to a stop, no surprise that it can affect things in the more mountainous countries of France, Italy and spain.

[onlooker]

30 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Excuse my ignorance gardener, but isn't it all grown under glass?  If so, I wonder how the poor weather can have such an effect

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/22/courgette-crisis-cold-weather-spanish-farmers-hope-worst-over

The picture is of broccoli covered in snow, so I assume it isn't grown under glass. Swedes, carrots and turnips should still be plentiful, it's just not so appealing for a vegan diet.