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davidg

French socialist party front runner proposes citizens income

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Benoit Hamon, currently lying second in the French socialist party primary opinion polls is proposing a "citizens income" as his main election promise. He has set the level at 750 euros. Now I've not looked at the details of what Hamon is proposing but I think his supporters think they are going to get 750 euros on top of all the other benefits. Some doleys are drawing 6,500 euros / month under France's over generous social security system. 750 euros / month would see many people worse off. The measure is estimated to cost 450 billion euros by 2022.

It has certainly worked for Hamon who is steadily rising in the opinion polls with this popular, and populist, measure. He is also proposing cutting the working week to 32 hours over 4 days. I'd barely have time to checkout HPC !

Hamon may actually be more in tune with the digital revolution than the right wing "work like a Chinese" mantra.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/universal-basic-income-ubi-france-presidential-candidates-socialist-monthly-all-french-citizens-a7530771.html

Hamon is also a "no borders multiculturalist".

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32 minutes ago, davidg said:

Some doleys are drawing 6,500 euros / month under France's over generous social security system. 


How much?!
And how many? 

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For most savers this would be like winning the lottery; this is £9,000 a year index linked for life. If you save on the basis you can sustainably draw 2% then this is like winning £450k, if 1% then £900k.

If I had known at age 21 that I could get £9k a year as of right then I wouldn't have even started work, but would have pursued my hobbies full time.  That's a fulfilling life for me but it's also one less taxpayer funding the great benefits giveaway.

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1 hour ago, davidg said:

Benoit Hamon, currently lying second in the French socialist party primary opinion polls is proposing a "citizens income" as his main election promise. He has set the level at 750 euros. Now I've not looked at the details of what Hamon is proposing but I think his supporters think they are going to get 750 euros on top of all the other benefits. Some doleys are drawing 6,500 euros / month under France's over generous social security system. 750 euros / month would see many people worse off. The measure is estimated to cost 450 billion euros by 2022.

It has certainly worked for Hamon who is steadily rising in the opinion polls with this popular, and populist, measure. He is also proposing cutting the working week to 32 hours over 4 days. I'd barely have time to checkout HPC !

Hamon may actually be more in tune with the digital revolution than the right wing "work like a Chinese" mantra.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/universal-basic-income-ubi-france-presidential-candidates-socialist-monthly-all-french-citizens-a7530771.html

Hamon is also a "no borders multiculturalist".

Although according to a French news website he is already furiously back-pedalling.

Shame, as IMO a Universal Income is inevitable in the very long term, and the sooner it gets discussed the better.

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2 minutes ago, DeepLurker said:

Although according to a French news website he is already furiously back-pedalling.

Shame, as IMO a Universal Income is inevitable in the very long term, and the sooner it gets discussed the better.

Difficult to go first though,particularly in an open borders, but not fiscally united polity. It runs the risk of being like needle park in Switzerland, a fine solution to a local issue until it attracts every complete waster in Europe.

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1 hour ago, SarahBell said:


How much?!
And how many? 

I don't have the figure but a lot of actors do this while "resting" under a special "regime" they have. You'll see a lot of actors do one series per year for France TV lasting 3.5 months shooting time. Say they get paid 10K per month then they can draw 6.5K for the remaining 8.5 months. Luvverly jubberly.

I managed to draw just short of this figure for a couple of years when I was laid off from CH! I felt sorry for the dole officer who was probably on minimum wage but had to listen to my tails of woe about how few jobs there were. The main issue I had is as a EU citizen I can't sponge off the French health service so had to go back to work to get health cover, it is part of the free movement of labour rules, you have to be self supporting.

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5 minutes ago, davidg said:

I don't have the figure but a lot of actors do this while "resting" under a special "regime" they have. You'll see a lot of actors do one series per year for France TV lasting 3.5 months shooting time. Say they get paid 10K per month then they can draw 6.5K for the remaining 8.5 months. Luvverly jubberly.

I managed to draw just short of this figure for a couple of years when I was laid off from CH! I felt sorry for the dole officer who was probably on minimum wage but had to listen to my tails of woe about how few jobs there were. The main issue I had is as a EU citizen I can't sponge off the French health service so had to go back to work to get health cover, it is part of the free movement of labour rules, you have to be self supporting.

If I was an actor then I'd move to France!  Actors don't get any special treatment in the UK any more; they used to up to ?20 years ago when it was accepted that their work was intermittent so they could sign on between jobs without a requirement to take other types of work.  It always seemed to bit of special pleading as you can also say that about a lot of jobs that people do; so you either allow that for all or you don't allow it for any which is the way it ended up.

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1 hour ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

Interesting to consider whether a CI would, for young people, go as far as undoing the damage of the explosion in house prices. Viewed through that lens CI looks like another bung to comfortably housed types. I am very much in favour of a CI as it happens.

I would expect the exact opposite to happen. You would see rents and property prices go up until they gradually consumed the whole of whatever benefit is on offer. It would become an endless spiral of increases, a bit like housing benefit used to be during the boom years but far more damaging as more people would make long term plans off it. The only way to prevent it would be to have the state intervene in these costs. To me this seems like a gateway to more government interference in our lives.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

For most savers this would be like winning the lottery; this is £9,000 a year index linked for life. If you save on the basis you can sustainably draw 2% then this is like winning £450k, if 1% then £900k.

If I had known at age 21 that I could get £9k a year as of right then I wouldn't have even started work, but would have pursued my hobbies full time.  That's a fulfilling life for me but it's also one less taxpayer funding the great benefits giveaway.

It's being printed anyway these days, dunno whether that ought to cheer you up or make you more depressed tbh.

With a CI clearly the level is key, 9k sounds generous as you say.

I think there are complicated problems which are only going to increase. CI exists in all but name for many in the UK, in many guises. Whether May has the mettle required to start to address some of the glaring issues surrounding the UK's low wage, high cost economy, and the extent to which the taxpayer is filling the gap and feeding an enormous cohort of special interest groups fromBTLers to corporate shareholders, landowners etc, and simultaneously ransacking current workers' terms, security, pay and pensions, is another matter.

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5 minutes ago, ThePiltdownMan said:

I would expect the exact opposite to happen. You would see rents and property prices go up until they gradually consumed the whole of whatever benefit is on offer. It would become an endless spiral of increases, a bit like housing benefit used to be during the boom years but far more damaging as more people would make long term plans off it. The only way to prevent it would be to have the state intervene in these costs. To me this seems like a gateway to more government interference in our lives.

Well the S24 tax changes to BTL are coming through which should clear out most leveraged types.

The government is already interfering, to an absurd degree. A CI might result in a massive cut in income for some groups, those in receipt of generous tax credit payouts for example. That is not inflationary for rents, on the face of it. Might be nice if they decided not to shaft young people for a change.

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3 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

If I had known at age 21 that I could get £9k a year as of right then I wouldn't have even started work, but would have pursued my hobbies full time.  That's a fulfilling life for me but it's also one less taxpayer funding the great benefits giveaway.

et moi aussi. 

 

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5 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

If I was an actor then I'd move to France! 

Many do - but if they get really rich they go to a tax haven.

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I don't think Hamon has a chance of getting the PS nomination. If he does, it's curtains for the PS in the 1st round presidential election.

Only credible one I can see is "Made In France" Montebourg. In any case, unless the PS candidate can get an agreement with Melanchon and the Greens, again they've no chance.

It's looking like Fillon v Le Pen in the 2nd round with an 80-20 win for the former,  imo.

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Hamon has (or will in a few minutes) take the PS nomination 60:40 against ex-PM Manuel Valls.

I finally found the details of the Citizens Income that Hamon proposes: 750 euros / month on top of any other benefits that people get - for example a "resting" actor could get his 6600 euros / month + housing benefit topped up by 750 euros / month.

Hamon is also in favour of open borders.

He proposes to pay for his citizens income by taxing wages.

Ex Goldman Sachs banker Macron seems to be the "establishment" choice for president.

Main right wing candidate Francois Fillon seems to have blown up - after it was revealed he may have employed his missus as a "secretary" bilking the public purse for half a million euros. Fillon's wife Penelope (she's Welsh) publicly stated that she has no role in Fillon's affairs.

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1 minute ago, davidg said:

Hamon has (or will in a few minutes) take the PS nomination 60:40 against ex-PM Manuel Valls.

I finally found the details of the Citizens Income that Hamon proposes: 750 euros / month on top of any other benefits that people get - for example a "resting" actor could get his 6600 euros / month + housing benefit topped up by 750 euros / month.

Sounds like the kind of promise politicians make to get elected only to backtrack after they have been elected.

I very much doubt that Hamon is like Trump (who seems to do exactly what he promised, even the lunatic promises).

Don't get me wrong, I think a Citizens Income is the way forward, but it should be instead of all other benefits, not in addition.

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Just now, The Eagle said:

Sounds like the kind of promise politicians make to get elected only to backtrack after they have been elected.

I very much doubt that Hamon is like Trump (who seems to do exactly what he promised, even the lunatic promises).

Don't get me wrong, I think a Citizens Income is the way forward, but it should be instead of all other benefits, not in addition.

Yeah, I think Hamon has misunderstood how it works.

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So Hamon, Macron and Fillon fight it out in the general election to see which one leads the anti-Le Pen coalition?

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CI is a good idea, it'll be too low to satisfy the Left though I think.  It'd end the benefits class overnight.

That is, after all, kinda the point of it.

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16 hours ago, EUBanana said:

CI is a good idea, it'll be too low to satisfy the Left though I think.  It'd end the benefits class overnight.

That is, after all, kinda the point of it.

Yes, I agree, it certainly merits a lot more debate. Not sure the Finnish trial will show anything (2000 pilot users), they should have used a whole town.

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Funniest thing to me is that he wants to tax robots!!

 

Heard about some idiot councilor in the French part of Switzerland last month wanting to tax self checkouts at 10,000CHF per machine.  Is this a trend we will see in the future?

 

Also davidg, what effect will Hamon have on LePen?  Saw the headline of an article by Ambrose Evans-pritchard, saying it would be good for her, didn't get to read the article as it was behind the paywall, to me it will make no difference either way, but admittedly I am not that close to the subject.

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On 18/01/2017 at 11:33 AM, ThePiltdownMan said:

I would expect the exact opposite to happen. You would see rents and property prices go up until they gradually consumed the whole of whatever benefit is on offer. It would become an endless spiral of increases, a bit like housing benefit used to be during the boom years but far more damaging as more people would make long term plans off it. The only way to prevent it would be to have the state intervene in these costs. To me this seems like a gateway to more government interference in our lives.

If done properly rents and property would fall. 

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