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The rise and rise of management


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14 hours ago, satch said:

Apparently the NHS is in crisis. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of managers paid more than the PM many involved in selling services to other NHS trusts ie pretending to be a profit orientated free-market business. In one trust I know well, their business development manager is an ex-nurse (nothing wrong with nurses!) who has never worked anywhere other than the NHS but thinks he is generating wealth ....

Yep. The 2010 reorganisation aimed to cut 60% of Management ********. It actually ended up increasing it.

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11 minutes ago, PopGun said:

Yep. The 2010 reorganisation aimed to cut 60% of Management ********. It actually ended up increasing it.

I've seen multiple re-orgs, all go the same.

A system, which is not fit for purpose, but everyone has figured out how to get to work is 'revamped'. For 6 months to a year noone knows how to get things done and lots of political games where people try to increase their power. After this, it settles down and everyone knows where they stand and how to get things done despite the processes. Then a new manager comes determined to 'make an impact' and starts a reorg...

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14 hours ago, StainlessSteelCat said:

Less than that in my firm. There's £2K between me (manager) and our latest developer hire.  Fair enough the differential has been greater in the past, but I've been there donkey's years and a semi-decent developer is like gold dust. 

Also sounds like they might be taking advantage of you.  How long since you bench marked how much you could get elsewhere?  Not saying go elsewhere but if you're being taken advantage of you then have some justification to ask for an increase.  Of course, if you play the game you might end up leaving for that other higher paying job.

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2 hours ago, One-percent said:

I was talking to a HR manager a little while back and the turnover of lecturing staff in London colleges is 25 percent per year.  So every four years, there is the equivalent of a new body of staff. I don't see how any organisation can operate on these lines but it doesn't seem to be viewed as an issue. 

In hr speak it's called jobbing. People don't want to stay in the same job!!!

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3 hours ago, jiltedjen said:

100% with you here. Im an Engineer next level up would be management. Although i have played with the idea of climbing the ranks into management i dont really think the reward will be that great for about 5 years, just a real terms 10%-15% increase for 30-40% more work, and 60% more stress. Maybe once you have some management years under your belt you can blag yourself though an interview for a huge step up in pay elsewhere. 
...

Be careful with that assumption.  Maybe in some places but I can confirm in others if you 'play the game' you can make a lot more than what you say.  I don't disagree with the brutal schedules, long hours and more stress though.  That is very real for me.

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3 hours ago, sPinwheel said:

I find complaining about pay only works when there's a real chance you could leave the company. As long as they think you are settled and are going nowhere, forget it. 

Agreed.  If you want the money you have to be prepared to have an air of ruthlessness about you.  I know that leaving is one of the techniques I've used to increase my earnings significantly.  Just the 'threat' of leaving has also worked.

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24 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

If you dont move into management your pay and progression is stalled, they wont pay you more for being very good at your job. Ive seen people move into management for more money who werent very good at it and probably didnt want to do it.

This. You can't get paid more for working hard and doing a good job anymore. 

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1 minute ago, wish I could afford one said:

Agreed.  If you want the money you have to be prepared to have an air of ruthlessness about you.  I know that leaving is one of the techniques I've used to increase my earnings significantly.  Just the 'threat' of leaving has also worked.

My biggest pay rise (10%) came from a pure accident.  A few weeks before the annual pay reviews I accompanied my line manger to a meeting and his phone had no charge and he was concerned as his wife was 9 months pregnant.  So I suggested he should call her with my phone to tell her, and she will know my number to relay any messages.

A few hours later my phone rings and I hear an unrecognised woman's voice, so immediately I hand the phone over to him and she starts talking.....He then looks at me totally puzzled. It wasn't his wife but a recruitment agency looking for someone with my skills paying 10% more.

To add more intrigue to the story, the said line manager pushed hard for my 10% rise to ensure I got it so I didn't leave midway through his vital project.  A few months later he then quit to take on a new role with that projects customer, who were so impressed with our delivery few months earlier!

 

 

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9 minutes ago, PopGun said:

This. You can't get paid more for working hard and doing a good job anymore. 

Disagree with this.  I'd change it to - You can't get paid more for working hard and doing a good job in some organisations.  If you are prepared to work hard and do a good job then an organisation of meritocracy is not the place to be from both a satisfaction and income perspective.  The other types do exist.

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2 minutes ago, PopGun said:

This. You can't get paid more for working hard and doing a good job anymore. 

Well, you can, but (perhaps sadly) you've usually got to move jobs to do it. And when the time comes to do that, push hard for what you think you're worth. And if you come to realise you have more value then you previously agreed, make sure they know it. 

The best way to ensure this is as WICAO sagely says, be in a job where they truly pay based on productivity.

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13 minutes ago, Frugal Git said:

Well, you can, but (perhaps sadly) you've usually got to move jobs to do it. And when the time comes to do that, push hard for what you think you're worth. And if you come to realise you have more value then you previously agreed, make sure they know it. 

The best way to ensure this is as WICAO sagely says, be in a job where they truly pay based on productivity.

Like Amazon's delivery drivers you mean ?

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Has anyone considered how demographics affect management attitudes and numbers?

Consider that the boomers are retiring out of these jobs leaving a vacuum, will this reduce the number of managers- certainly at high levels?

Is there sufficient gen-X to fill the gaps or are they too wiley to take those jobs on?

Millennials surely cant yet?

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3 hours ago, the_duke_of_hazzard said:

I've done both, and much prefer working to managing. The thing about management is that everyone moans about it (including managers) but few really want to do it.

The trouble or 'problem' I've observed in the public sector is that usually, those that are good at their job are good because they enjoy it and they are not interested in management and it's need for alpha male/female bullshitters; even though frustratingly, many workers would make very capable managers. This leaves ample room for the alpha bullshitters to take the management roles. In a way, you could argue that workers endure crap management as a result of not stepping up to the plate themselves, although they'd probably not get considered by the cabal now, simply because the workers' very capability would be seen as a threat.

Edited by LiveinHope
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12 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Consider that the boomers are retiring out of these jobs leaving a vacuum, will this reduce the number of managers- certainly at high levels?

Is there sufficient gen-X to fill the gaps or are they too wiley to take those jobs on?

Though I can run rings around 80% of the managers I have come across in the companies I have worked in I have always avoided management roles due to the fact that the extra couple of K on offer is not worth the shear level of grief and unpaid work that the positions entailed.

As a Sigma male I will not assimilate.

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11 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Has anyone considered how demographics affect management attitudes and numbers?

Consider that the boomers are retiring out of these jobs leaving a vacuum, will this reduce the number of managers- certainly at high levels?

Is there sufficient gen-X to fill the gaps or are they too wiley to take those jobs on?

Millennials surely cant yet?

I don't see the boomers retiring, either i) they like the gravy train too much 2) want the prestige of the title 3) never saved any money 4) have a lifestyle that is too expensive. I know boomers who were on 100k salaries, who retired and got their final salary pension at 60 and came back in the same role and are still in it at 70 - can't afford to retire, apparently. It really annoys me as it stops any career progression below these 'bed blockers' so lower ranks get bored and depressed in their static roles and productivity declines.

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1 minute ago, ChewingGrass said:

Though I can run rings around 80% of the managers I have come across in the companies I have worked in I have always avoided management roles due to the fact that the extra couple of K on offer is not worth the shear level of grief and unpaid work that the positions entailed.

As a Sigma male I will not assimilate.

I was going to mention 'Sigma' in my post - I put in Alpha instead

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43 minutes ago, LiveinHope said:

 many workers would make very capable managers.

There are a lot of average managers/leaders granted but most people wouldn't make a capable manager. Just look at the divorce rate and the way people conduct themselves throughout their daily life, they have no concept of the consistency in relationships and bearing in general which is one the cornerstones of good management.

 

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47 minutes ago, LiveinHope said:

The trouble or 'problem' I've observed in the public sector is that usually, those that are good at their job are good because they enjoy it and they are not interested in management and it's need for alpha male/female bullshitters; even though frustratingly, many workers would make very capable managers. This leaves ample room for the alpha bullshitters to take the management roles. In a way, you could argue that workers endure crap management as a result of not stepping up to the plate themselves, although they'd probably not get considered by the cabal now, simply because the workers' very capability would be seen as a threat.

I was seen as a very good manager, who got a lot of respect. My best time was actually when I understood the workers least (I got moved to be put in charge of a failing department), and managed to remove a devious bully who thought he was great. By not wanting to do their jobs for them (but understanding how things got done) I could focus on the people stuff. 

Problem is you don't get any credit for it, whereas concrete skills or achievements are easier to sell on. Saying you managed something for a couple of years could mean anything.

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8 minutes ago, the_duke_of_hazzard said:

I was seen as a very good manager, who got a lot of respect. My best time was actually when I understood the workers least (I got moved to be put in charge of a failing department), and managed to remove a devious bully who thought he was great. By not wanting to do their jobs for them (but understanding how things got done) I could focus on the people stuff. 

Problem is you don't get any credit for it, whereas concrete skills or achievements are easier to sell on. Saying you managed something for a couple of years could mean anything.

Deploying the skill you obviously have on the people side pays massive dividends when running your own business. Most small and medium sized sized businesses are woeful (generally through no fault of their own never been a properly trained manager else where or haven't the time or money to invest in serious training) when it comes to management

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4 hours ago, Frugal Git said:

Well, you can, but (perhaps sadly) you've usually got to move jobs to do it. And when the time comes to do that, push hard for what you think you're worth. And if you come to realise you have more value then you previously agreed, make sure they know it. 

The best way to ensure this is as WICAO sagely says, be in a job where they truly pay based on productivity.

Well yes you have to move jobs which was my point. Even then you only seem to be able to get so far without avoiding the managersphere.

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1 hour ago, nightowl said:

Has anyone considered how demographics affect management attitudes and numbers?

Consider that the boomers are retiring out of these jobs leaving a vacuum, will this reduce the number of managers- certainly at high levels?

Is there sufficient gen-X to fill the gaps or are they too wiley to take those jobs on?

Millennials surely cant yet?

I think you'll find that there's no job to step up to as many of these posts vacated by boomers get leaned out. The work and responsibilities disseminated to those left lower down the food chain.

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