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On Thursday, January 05, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Venger said:

I see outright owners here projecting 'most-likely' future course being 'debt forgiveness for mortgage holders' / or Weimar.

Selling their own fantasies I suspect.  Certainly seen the BTLers doubling down in recent years, with view of core-voter HPI protected.

Homeownership has plunged for younger people.  Millions of renters.

A market where people make choices.    People think very differently - that is true.

Individual choices.

I have links to posts from BTLers on HPC, mocking renter-savers, and telling of their 'clients who have just gone into BTL'.  "Yield yield yield.  HPI doubled and stuff, through all this time you been wasting for a HPC."   - Weeks before S24 announced.

Someone buys a house in this market, or new flash car = "must be a victim / uninformed / just wanted a home at any price because so weak at being viewed as pathetic renter" (of media / of culture) response from so many - as those who buy enjoy the full possession and use of their purchase.   

What do you want to do thewig?  What are your answers?  

Start a Chamber-of-Control and have protective-left-agents in this country where so many owners are claimed to be "financially illiterate victims" -  oversee everyone's freedom/choice?  Ban advertising and ban new cars?  Ban television shows?  Oversee all News items?   And if any HPC ahead, bail out the few big mortgage debtors?  The BTLers too?  Decide who can marry who?   

I have read it for years, as prices have reinflated year after year after year.  Media/Advertising/Didn't know what they were doing.

And yet so many older owners confident it's house price bailout (from these prices) if prices risk slipping ("because high house prices are the economy or something"). Millions more believe supply-and-demand = more HPI+++ to come, or small island growing population... been doubling down into BTL.

It's not a market of win for everyone.  And it can't be a market of bailout by those who have so much less, for those who have claims on so much more.

Doesn't matter what I want does it? My point was in my opinion the masses are acting per their programming. That includes taking on ever increasing levels of DEBT to keep the ponzi fuelled. Programmed from birth. Individuals are irrelevant in market terms and your argument whilst I agree with it completely, is from an individual's point of view. 

 

What we think of as doing the right thing is not any more,, from the markets perspective. The idiots taking on all the DEBT are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

 

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19 hours ago, Si1 said:

Nice example of financial illiteracy. Well done. Now look up the terms 'risk adjusted returns', 'diversification', 'opportunity cost' & 'basic accounting'

Or just happy with my lot, helped my family and got on with life....

It seems (not usually you) that so many people on here whilst saying that a house shouldn't be an asset every other aspect of their life is treated as some sort of poor mans running a business, with talk of opportunity cost, basic accounting and risk adjusted terms. My guess is most have never run a business of any size and so managing their private life like this is 'fun' ie the boring bits.

Money as we all agree is a fabrication so spend it how you want we are all dust anyway eventually, Making provision for your family is up there as one of the better reasons in my book 

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7 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said:

Or just happy with my lot, helped my family and got on with life....

It seems (not usually you) that so many people on here whilst saying that a house shouldn't be an asset every other aspect of their life is treated as some sort of poor mans running a business, with talk of opportunity cost, basic accounting and risk adjusted terms. My guess is most have never run a business of any size and so managing their private life like this is 'fun' ie the boring bits.

Money as we all agree is a fabrication so spend it how you want we are all dust anyway eventually, Making provision for your family is up there as one of the better reasons in my book 

Except conditionally making provision based on it only going as a house deposit is forcing the kids hands and rather unfair if they prefer to invest elsewhere (where yields are better, say)

 

 

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3 hours ago, thewig said:

Doesn't matter what I want does it? My point was in my opinion the masses are acting per their programming. That includes taking on ever increasing levels of DEBT to keep the ponzi fuelled. Programmed from birth. Individuals are irrelevant in market terms and your argument whilst I agree with it completely, is from an individual's point of view. 

What we think of as doing the right thing is not any more,, from the markets perspective. The idiots taking on all the DEBT are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

Homeowners/BTLers sat on £Trillions in long wave HPI and projecting even more.

Quote

 

8 September 2014  (Prices to double by 2030)
Kilo Charlie, My World, 9 hours ago

We purchased a property in 1983 for £72,000.........today it's worth £650,000 plus. It's certainly possible and quite likely.

Sam, Bucks, 3 hours ago
Bought house in ,74 for 16k added extention about £8k now valued at £480k you do the maths?

 

Individuals make up the market !!!

Without the individual players there is no game.  The impact of ones actions upon the world is the only morality worth speaking of. They're our own responsibility.

At ever higher house prices peaks in many areas, so many younger people priced out, with many here claiming they only see HPI to protect values, or bailouts in prices fall...

All this "programming" you speak of for choice of 10s of millions of people in the UK, making their own life choices - and so often owning (and being high net worth value from ownership), or making claims on what most of us would like to have.... very nice house, nice car.  

I have a nice German marque car still under warranty!  (Had an old car previously).   However I put those using the bus (and renting-saving) ahead of all those here who claim people buying and enjoying nice new cars and/or buying expensive houses, are "innocents" and "victims of programming".

Nice house, new car = life choices.   I like new £40K cars as well, and would like a lovely house as well.  Such houses are too expensive in my area, and just not worth the money at £300,000 -  £500,000+ but others own such houses they bought for <£100K.  I can't do anything about those individuals paying £500K+ today.  They are not innocents who have been programmed to must-enjoy nice things, outbidding all others.  They're adult market participants with their own individual world-views, incomes and positions!!    A market.   I have long refused to compete in a booming market saturated by HPIers and BTLers.   I live within my means, take my bearings about value, and make market decisions.    As we all have to do.  Responsibility for our market actions.

I will push back against those who want to take away freedoms of choice - although it is my view that sadly our HPC forum is a place where many gather who hold views expressed about 'programming' / 'innocence' for those who are often HAPPY (right now) with what they have bought/got - and with housing, for their mad-gainz!   

For all the push back about HPC group-think I have done in the past... there is some of it when it comes to excuse giving / innocents / programming - when someone owns a house or a nice car.  Bit of a gathering place for these views - which irks me given I want HPC.   That and others who claim no HPC and bailouts forever.  Then others who believe in forever HPI anyway (supply demand etc).  You just don't get all this 'programming' / 'innocents' positions on a mainstream forum like MSE as an overriding 'truth'.  It's such a HPC thing.  Borrow money, pay it back, or consequences.  Simple.  The very few on MSE who do come asking if they've been 'Missold a mortgage? - entitled to compo?' often tell their tale and get reality response deserved.  Here they're considered as innocents/missold programming by many. 

I don't care about BOMAD - (I give lots of money away to my loved ones... £30K+ over last few years, inc into Junior ISAs.)  

Just irks when Bomads point to one innocent who claims "she doesn't know interest rates" - with others jumping on a view to project as many homeowners as possible as financially illiterate innocents / victims of programming (bail out all those innocents with mortgages!), but when her own position is that she "can't see house prices can't fall in expensive areas".  Obviously not if the questing to bail the few with mortgages works out!

Then you have all the HPI heads anyway, and all HPCers who see it core-voter homeowner bailouts ahead. When they are ouright owners already, played bomad, (and even one new member who is a landlord who is bringing nothing but 'bailouts for homeowners ahead') maybe they are protecting their own VI.   Then also overwhelmed by those who claim those with houses are people are programmed.

Quote

 

The liberal left have a deeply patronising attitude to the victim groups they seek to protect.

They see them as totally helpless children without agency or the ability to make decisions of their own.

 

 

14 hours ago, Pablosammy said:

PCP isn't inherently evil, although evil people often use it to pull the wool over the uninitiated's eyes.

As long as you do the sums, work out the total cost of ownership, and compare it against other available finance options, it's a perfectly valid way of owning a car. It's just a finance product, ultimately, and a relatively simple one at that.

Yes, of course a £3k used Fiesta is cheaper to own than a C Class Merc on PCP, but some people don't mind paying more for a bit of luxury and a warranty. They're not idiots, they're not uninformed, they just made a different choice. The self-righteousness on here can be suffocating at times.

All the would-be High Sparrows concern me - "everyone's an innocent" 'victims of programming'  (Can't be trusted to make their own adult decisions or have a market view)- "if I ruled the world!" - "everyone to live in barefooted monk-gowned country of freedom and happiness under my control."

game_of_thrones_sparrows_savonarola.jpg

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On 1/4/2017 at 0:34 PM, Kiwi_Muncher said:

In a discussion with my sister trying to dissuade her from jumping on the BTL bandwagon, I explained that if/when house prices come down, she could be trapped in negative equity. She replied "but surely the bank will shrink the size of the mortgage too?". That is the level of stupidity we're up against.

Reap the coming whirlwind BTL people farmers, and the 'helpless' HPI heads.

This 'stupidity' would-be BTLer would suddenly turn fast in to chase tenant if rent was short/not forthcoming from any less than intelligent tenant.

Excuses.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel for her own free choice to look to farm some other family, in a tight house price situation.

On 3/30/2016 at 11:38 AM, justthisbloke said:

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

It's a choice in a market with so many priced out, and BTLer saturation feasting on the young.

On 3/30/2016 at 0:12 PM, LC1 said:

This is the crux of it. There is no sleight of hand, no deception. People walk willingly into such things with their eyes open (no excuse if not).

Turns out you made a bad decision? Life lessons are hard sometimes, but you'll surely be more aware of potential downside risks next time. End of story.

 

On 3/30/2016 at 0:30 PM, Neverwhere said:

+ 1 to both.

The person saying "don't do it" should be the individual considering it, who should be aware that they are fallible and don't always make perfect decisions, and that the amount of money involved is non-trivial and high risk. The only way people can learn these things is by being allowed to wear the consequences of their poor decisions when they make them.

The idea of people as objects with no ability to make choices of their own, of adults who can't be allowed to make their own decisions or take responsibility for their own actions, is dystopian in the extreme. How could a society which regarded people in this manner do anything other than move towards a system of rigorous and all-pervading control over the the populace at large in order to counteract our apparent inability to think for ourselves?

All pervading control by some would-be 'all-knowing' HPC High Sparrow types IMO - if some had their way - control and taking away freedom and all pleasures. 

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Venger your misrepresenting my position again. I cannot be arsed to go over it again, its only my opinion, I don't think DEBTjunkies should be let off paying their DEBTS, I dont' think they are victims of anything, but there is no disputing the vast majority of people live their lives in the way to which they have been programmed. You repeatedly make the mistake (wilfully or otherwise) of conflating my observation with my condonation. Stop it.

I make observations about the world all the time, I condone very few of them, you seem to think that whatever I post I am condoning, no I am able to objectively observe something without at the same time condone or condemn it. Just posting my observations, you don't like my observations (nor do I) but that doesn't mean I agree with them because I have seen them. You've got a blind spot here, maybe I have too who knows, but you don't seem to read what I'm actually saying before tipping into your well trodden rant about innocents and market participants etc which I agree with entirely. You're off base here my friend.

 

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Yes it is your belief about 'programming' - whatever that means for people choosing to BTL other people. (Topic thread).

People buying houses and new cars are making choice in a market of tens of millions of people.  

House prices are expensive.  Know couples who recoil at the prices, where others choose to buy (BOMAD perhaps).

Your view about programming (houses/BTL/new cars) comes hard back to responsibility.  

Programming covers everything.  Great excuse for terrible behaviour.

What other point can 'programming' mean in discussion about BTL/House price/cars, other than limited or zero (innocence) responsibility for their own actions. 

Are all the mad-gainz homeowners I quoted about sat on £500K equity mad-gainz and expecting lot more HPI also programmed?  Where does it stop?

That's why I pushback and in doing so, it is engagement.

Quote

Belief is so often the death of reason.

- Qyburn, -Game of Thrones

 

 

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54 minutes ago, thewig said:

Venger your misrepresenting my position again. I cannot be arsed to go over it again, its only my opinion, I don't think DEBTjunkies should be let off paying their DEBTS, I dont' think they are victims of anything, but there is no disputing the vast majority of people live their lives in the way to which they have been programmed. You repeatedly make the mistake (wilfully or otherwise) of conflating my observation with my condonation. Stop it.

I make observations about the world all the time, I condone very few of them, you seem to think that whatever I post I am condoning, no I am able to objectively observe something without at the same time condone or condemn it. Just posting my observations, you don't like my observations (nor do I) but that doesn't mean I agree with them because I have seen them. You've got a blind spot here, maybe I have too who knows, but you don't seem to read what I'm actually saying before tipping into your well trodden rant about innocents and market participants etc which I agree with entirely. You're off base here my friend.

 

Lol I recognise this kind of post.

It's why I hit ignore about a year ago.

V is as ill as a BTLer but on the other side. He's balancing out the equation Matrix-stylie on his own.

Venger, since birth, has never ever been influenced by anything or anyone. Ever. He was born with a perfect impermeable mind. Apparently.

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Ah The High Sparrow-Chief weighs in. :)

On 6/2/2015 at 9:07 AM, Noallegiance said:

I'll sum it up purely by stating that if you've never found yourself in a situation where you realise that your actions are not a result of your own choices, then you have successfully circumvented 99.9% of the societal layers uncontrollably thrust upon you since birth. Some make bad choices in relationships. Some with houses. Some with what to have for dinner. Some then go on with poor choices in a misguided attempt to rectify the first bad choice. And so it goes on. Every aspect of life is subject to propoganda. See your own sentence I've ***'d above for evidence that you already understand this.

I don't absolve individuals of their part in the process. I just recognise that certain decisions they think they've made were in fact not their own. It's an undeniable fact. Otherwise the world would be a very different place.

If I had to stick a blame figure on it I'd go for 70/30 in favour of banks and govt over the populace at large. As with any problem, the source is what needs fixing more than the subsequent results of the actions of that source. Which leads us back to people not making their own decisions but being funneled down certain routes.

No responsibility for anything.  People are dancing happiness in their happy state, and don't have greed, overriding ambitions, selfishness.... 

Not their own decisions.  Some big bad.  Innocence.  

Even in relationships... somone else responsible for making you date or marry a person.  "Pwopoganda"

By pretending we're all programmed and have no responsibility for our own choices in life, it leads to more bad behaviour... more BTLers.  I push back.  It is intellectual evasion taken to extremes.   "The new car buyer is a victim of advertising" - "My £50K deposit relative is just stupid, in her desire to BTL someone else."   Their own life choices in a competitive market.   Outright owners programmed for expecting more HPI extremes to come.

Quote

There is prejudice against any theory that highlights the interconnectedness of life in a nonmagical way. Many minds balk at any long chain of reasoning, whatever the character of conclusions it supports. This prejudice is all the more emphatic when logic suggests that certain political or social developments are broadly deterministic, or that each stage of human history does not afford the same possibilities. In part, this disregard for causes and consequences is a form of intellectual evasion. What is truly random cannot be predicted or explained. By pretending everything is random, we paradoxically allow ourselves to shirk responsibility for those circumstances where our own actions could have an effect in altering outcomes for the better. To those who do not wish to understand, all news is a surprise.

 

 

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Hey my OP about a relative was to highlight that people are at fault for making bad decisions based on lack of research. They are absolutely responsible for not doing said research. I used to drive a hiace you know! It's like the HPC version of the A-Team van!

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31 minutes ago, Venger said:

Ah The High Sparrow-Chief weighs in. :)

 

No responsibility for anything.  People are dancing happiness in their happy state, and don't have greed, overriding ambitions, selfishness.... 

Not their own decisions.  Some big bad.  Innocence.  

Even in relationships... somone else responsible for making you date or marry a person.  "Pwopoganda"

By pretending we're all programmed and have no responsibility for our own choices in life, it leads to more bad behaviour... more BTLers.  I push back.  It is intellectual evasion taken to extremes.   "The new car buyer is a victim of advertising" - "My £50K deposit relative is just stupid, in her desire to BTL someone else."   Their own life choices in a competitive market.   Outright owners programmed for expecting more HPI extremes to come.

 

 

Come on. Hi sparrow? Not aware of this reference, not interested in finding out. You don't read my posts, you are projecting a bit here imo. Read what I've written ffs.

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1 hour ago, Kiwi Toast said:

Why does it matter? If someone said "actually I do condone it", or "I don't believe they are responsible as they have been programmed" what would be the impact?

You'd have Venger on your case for one.

It wouldn't matter at all if that was my position, but it isn't and Venger keeps trying to tell me it is, and I keep trying to tell him it isn't, then he tells me it is, then I tell him it isn't.

 

Its all rather fun.

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3 hours ago, Kiwi Toast said:

Why does it matter? If someone said "actually I do condone it", or "I don't believe they are responsible as they have been programmed" what would be the impact?

Nothing but what does it add?   Millions loves HPI and BTLism - get enough of that in real world.  

I do approve of the choice to buy new cars on PCP.  No one is dragging people into new car-dealership, as other people take the bus!

If you are happy with the BTL situation call it and say it.  Enough have, including L33 claiming BTLers are just playing the game as best they can with limited choices, to farm other people.  When enough players who refuse to play there is no game.  

Others here claim everyone has been programmed / victims of media / no free will - in a discussion about homeowners and would-be BTLers... at ever higher prices.  

Just a select few who know 'the truth' including them.  Covers everyone.  Those buying homes, those sat on £500K equity gains over 25 years, those buying new cars on PCP........ "programmed".  

Seems like sour grapes response mechanism to me, and strongly hints of preferring control over other people - of not trusting people's own life decisions.  People enjoying their life decisions (HPI galore past few years in my area), in or wanting to get into BTL, or buying new cars....

"How can I rationalise it to myself.."  -  I know, "People are programmed innocents not capable of knowing they are non-thinking automatons - system needs fixing where people can't buy cars or houses unless I personally approve it - or even go on dates with people because brainwashed by media".  

21 hours ago, Pablosammy said:

PCP: As long as you do the sums, work out the total cost of ownership, and compare it against other available finance options, it's a perfectly valid way of owning a car. It's just a finance product, ultimately, and a relatively simple one at that.

Yes, of course a £3k used Fiesta is cheaper to own than a C Class Merc on PCP, but some people don't mind paying more for a bit of luxury and a warranty. They're not idiots, they're not uninformed, they just made a different choice. The self-righteousness on here can be suffocating at times.

Then it turns into post after post about how it won't be HPC anyway, but bailout for homeowners.  If it is HPC, simply take your medicine.  Can't have it both ways.  Programmed homeowners & 'there won't be HPC because it will be bailout / inflation'./

Kiwi x 2 confusion.

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1 hour ago, Kiwi Toast said:

But we could be having fun and discussing questions which have implications.

+1

Terrific essay from Richard Vague on the evonomics website which puts responsibility for The Crisis back squarely where it belongs: with the lenders, regulators and ideologues of the free market.

How to suffocate your economy? Drown it in massive private debt.

Quote

Why does the IMF keep badly missing its global growth forecast? And what does that have to do with the 2016 presidential election?

In the years since the 2008 global crisis, when the world’s growth rates tumbled, the IMF has dutifully printed forecast after forecast predicting rebounding growth rates. But in reality, rates have fallen well short of these predictions, as seen in Chart 1.

vague-charts1-704x449.png

One of the key and largely overlooked reasons for this disappointing growth is hiding in plain sight: the increasing global burden of private debt—the combination of business debt and household debt. Even though government debt grabs all the headlines, private debt is larger than government debt and has more impact on economic outcomes. In the United States, total nonfinancial private debt is $27 trillion and public debt is $19 trillion. More telling, since 1950, U.S. private debt has almost tripled from 55 percent of GDP to 150 percent of GDP, and most other major economies have shown a similar trend. [See Chart 2.] Since GDP is largely the sum of all the spending, and thus income, of households and businesses in an economy, if aggregate private debt to GDP has tripled, that means that average businesses and households have three times more debt in relation to their income. Both private debt and government debt matter, and both will be discussed here, but of these two, it is private debt that has the larger and more direct impact on economic outcomes, and addressing the issues associated with private debt is the more productive path to economic revival.

Stagnant incomes, underemployment, and job insecurity are key reasons so many voters in Europe and America are now willing to embrace candidates outside of the mainstream. But the now stultifying level of private debt, and the accompanying impact on growth, is an equally important reason.

vague-charts2

Private debt is a beneficial and essential part of any economy. However, as it increases, it can bring two problems. The first is dramatic. Very rapid or “runaway” private debt growth often brings financial crises. Runaway private debt growth brought the 2008 crisis in the United States, the 1991 crisis in Japan, and the 1997 crisis across Asia, to name just three. And just as runaway debt for a country as a whole is predictive of calamity for that country, runaway debt for a subcategory of debt, such as oil and gas or commercial real estate, is predictive of problems within that subcategory.

The second problem it brings is much more subtle and insidious: When too high, private debt becomes a drag on economic growth. It chips away at the margin of growth trends. Though different researchers cite different levels, a growing body of research suggests that when private debt enters the range of 100 to 150 percent of GDP, it impedes economic growth.

When private debt is high, consumers and businesses have to divert an increased portion of their income to paying interest and principal on that debt—and they spend and invest less as a result. That’s a very real part of what’s weighing on economic growth. After private debt reaches these high levels, it suppresses demand.

Because interest rates are low, some economists have dismissed this impact. However, most middle- and lower-income households (which is where the highest rate of debt growth has been), as well as most small- and medium-size businesses, pay interest rates much higher than money market rates. In the case of low-income households and small businesses, the rates for some types of debt can be very high, often an APR of 20 to 30 percent or more. And in addition to interest, all these borrowers have to pay down the principal balance of the loan. High debt makes these borrowers more reluctant to spend or take on more debt. Further, an estimated 6.4 million of the 56 million mortgages held in the United States are still severely underwater. Millions more are less severely underwater or just barely “above.” Many of these mortgages were underwritten at the height of the boom. Since then, the home values, and in many cases the incomes, of these borrowers have fallen. Lower rates may help but do not solve their financial stress. Though their rates may be lower, all of these borrowers are now in a world where increases in income and revenue are harder to come by.

This all takes a bite out of the spending and investing that drives growth.

The unprecedented amount of our global debt glut is underscored by the creeping presence of negative interest rates—a situation where the borrower, unbelievably enough, gets paid for borrowing. An estimated 15 percent of European corporate debt issued now has a negative interest rate. If the massive $150 trillion glut of debt is the culprit that is curbing demand, then perhaps this European Central Bank experiment with negative rates is the inevitable response to this glut. High private debt contributes to lower rates by reducing demand for credit—since highly leveraged borrowers have less ability to borrow more and are often understandably wary of further borrowing. But these negative rates are not generally available to low- and middle-income borrowers.

U.S. private debt growth has disproportionately affected the least well-off Americans. In fact, since 1989 (the year the Fed started a survey of this statistic), the debt level of the 20 percent of U.S. households with the lowest net worth has grown two and a half times faster than all other households. And though consumers have deleveraged since the crisis, and the popular perception is that consumers are in much better shape today, consumers are in fact carrying 13 percent more debt as a percent of GDP than they were in 2000, the moment before the ill-fated private debt boom that led to the 2008 crisis began.

http://evonomics.com/how-to-suffocate-your-economy-private-debt/

 

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25 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

+1

Terrific essay from Richard Vague on the evonomics website which puts responsibility for The Crisis back squarely where it belongs: with the lenders, regulators and ideologues of the free market.

How to suffocate your economy? Drown it in massive private debt.

I have no debt.

Don't know any renter-savers in my family or wider friend group who have any debt.

We're crushed by very expensive house prices, BTLers on the people farm.

Here you are claiming what - to sort things out there needs to be more debt-forgiveness for those in debt (BTLers etc / hipsters latest buyers in in San Fran / SoCal powered by Bomad - have you seen the bubble prices there of real estate?), so they can have the load lightened to spend and borrow more 'for growth' ??

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HOLA4423
1 hour ago, Venger said:

Nothing but what does it add?   Millions loves HPI and BTLism - get enough of that in real world.  

 

I said "What does it matter?" And you respond by asking "what does it add?" Do you realise that your question has the same meaning as mine?

The real issues are how does the world work, what is happening and how should we respond. We'll all have a more fruitful time, learn more and influence the world for the better by focusing on facts and theories rather than accusing people of holding certain unpleasant views.

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4 minutes ago, Kiwi Toast said:

I said "What does it matter?" And you respond by asking "what does it add?" Do you realise that your question has the same meaning as mine?

The real issues are how does the world work, what is happening and how should we respond. We'll all have a more fruitful time, learn more and influence the world for the better by focusing on facts and theories rather than accusing people of holding certain unpleasant views.

My final post for some time, but I agree entirely.

I am defending the very right to choose.

In vast majority of instance, buyers of houses, cars, and those entering BTL, are not being taken advantage of.  

The banner of 'financially illiterate' / media made them buy, and not responsible for life decisions.

The world doesn't work with a few posters on HPC making out that no one is intelligent enough to make their own life decisions - and therefore must have been taken advantage of.   It's boring, patronising and suffocating - and anti-reality.

Also disagree with ZZ about private debt.  Let them pay it back or let them sell, and bring down prices at the margin, to make way for sounder money.  That creates new demand and growth.

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HOLA4425
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I have no debt.

Don't know any renter-savers in my family or wider friend group who have any debt.

Given that virtually all the money in the system has to be borrowed into existence by someone, from a certain point of view your lack of indebtedness makes you kind of parasitic- if everyone followed your debt free lifestyle the entire system would collapse as the money supply shrank to zero.

So rather than condemn those carrying large debts you should perhaps be thanking them- it's their willingness to take on debt that protects your savings from being wiped out in a systemic meltdown-because a shrinking money supply = death to the system as trade becomes impossible.

The reality is that the only thing keeping the whole absurd show on the road now is the willingness of some to keep on borrowing money- this is how insane the system is.

So strange as the idea might seem, the truth is that debtors are your freinds- so be a little nicer to them if you can.:D

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