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interestrateripoff

rail fares

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Chris Grayling has clearly been well schooled in the Propaganda Department for Soviet Tractor Manufacture when he stated

"We are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme for more than a century, providing more seats and services."

Presumably the Southern Rail passenger who said their appalling service had  “Quite simply, it has ruined my life.” was imagining it or the commuter from Wivelsfield to London who said: “The Southern Rail crisis has affected me profoundly - I have lost faith in Government, civil service and mainstream media. I have had to abandon my belief in rail travel as an environmentally sustainable and socially responsible transport option, I have lost out financially as I have had to cut my work hours to reduce commuting."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/southern-rail-strike-survey_uk_58691a0ee4b0f24da6e921bb

The reality is that fares have gone up much faster than wages yet the service reliability over the same period has plummeted and this process was well under way before the current round of rail strikes

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/dec/31/rising-fares-and-crowded-trains-the-misery-of-britains-rail-users

This country is broken, broken, broken yet all you hear from politicians is Marie Antoinette comments about the cakes (or the trains) arriving tomorrow

 

 

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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Rail passengers hit by hikes of up to £2,100 in cost of annual tickets

Opposition condemns ‘truly staggering’ increases, as the cost of a season ticket between Birmingham and London tops £10,200

 

More like 

'A truly fcked up economy if people have to commute 120miles to get to work'

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15 minutes ago, GreenDevil said:

Rail passengers hit by hikes of up to £2,100 in cost of annual tickets

Opposition condemns ‘truly staggering’ increases, as the cost of a season ticket between Birmingham and London tops £10,200

 

More like 

'A truly fcked up economy if people have to commute 120miles to get to work'

Imagine how much an HS2 ticket is going to cost...

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53 minutes ago, interestrateripoff said:

I actually think £850 a month to commute from Birmingham into London is reasonable. That cost is more than offset by not living in the capital. Caveat this is for professional occupations only where an hours salary covers the cost of the days commute. 

Theres a lot of infrastructure (£3million pendolino carriages), track/maintenance, unionised salaries and pensions to pay.

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There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

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24 minutes ago, Orsino said:

There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

How will all these people live in London? 

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1 hour ago, Orsino said:

There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

Is that not just another  'Let Them Eat Cake' argument to be trotted out to the peasants 

How much choice do people really have about commuting distances. Far less than you are suggesting I suspect

Anyway I dont commute to London just a few stops along the South Coast

You dont have to get on a train to the capital to experience the scene below

southernrailrammedtrain.jpg

It is a pretty common experience on Coastway West services that go nowhere near London

Southern Rails favourite trick is to take a train as far as Barnham and then terminate the service turfing off all the passengers at the one interchange on the route that has no alternative means of public transport. And you can forget about Rail replacement bus services outside Network Rail engineering work at weekends. They only exist in politicians fantasies

To see how London centric government is in its thinking you only have to look what HMRC are doing with its office structure in the south East. All the local office are closing and staff being relocated to 2 massive offices based in London. Same is happening in every region. Staff are being required to commute further

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34796299

Pure genius

Creating a dystopian environment and then lecturing people that is all their fault for living in it is simply perverse and cruel

 

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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1 hour ago, Orsino said:

There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

How would you implement this?

Adding a surcharge to restrict people's travel based on political motivations will have perverse unforeseen consequences. I would say something else is amiss with the UK economy rather than artificially increasing travel cost by distance.

I want high paid and high quality work to be evenly distributed across the UK in every town and city but it seems throughout human history that network effects and social momentum are far stronger than local regeneration and local investment. Why is that?

If I was going to run a technical or engineering company, I would pick London, Oxford or Cambridge, to access the skill. Regional investment is a chicken and egg problem.

We don't need a planned market to solve this problem but you would have to pump lots of money into Birmingham, enough to to make it cheaper and more profitable to work in Birmingham over London. Unfortunately you need a non-trivial amount of resources.

But Birmingham is already cheaper than London when it comes to travel and living costs. Why do people in Birmingham still commute to London? People are making an economic decision, leverage a London salary in a low cost of living area. A sensible and economic decision.

 

...on second thoughts, are the numbers of commuters from Birmingham to London really that high to be a regional drain?

 

Edited by phantominvestor

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1 hour ago, Orsino said:

There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

In Japan, the company you work for pays your commuting costs.  That's all it would take. 

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2 hours ago, longtomsilver said:

I actually think £850 a month to commute from Birmingham into London is reasonable. That cost is more than offset by not living in the capital. Caveat this is for professional occupations only where an hours salary covers the cost of the days commute. 

Theres a lot of infrastructure (£3million pendolino carriages), track/maintenance, unionised salaries and pensions to pay.

If the cost of living works out to be the same, then I'd rather not commute 2 hours door to door.  It seems these days people's time simply isn't valuable when they're commuting. 

Edited by canbuywontbuy

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7 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said:

If the cost of living works out to be the same, then I'd rather not commute 2 hours door to door.  It seems these days people's time simply isn't valuable when they're commuting. 

I said that if the cost of commuting was more than offset by the expense to living in the capital and it is.

There are more £100k jobs within the M25 than outside of it - assuming a basic salary of £95,000... the whopper £400,000 mortgage on a £550,000 2 bedroom flat, the monthly repayment alone would be £1,900 (25year term) from a basic net salary of £5,000. Wherever you are in London (outside of zone 2/3) you'll still have a commute of 30-45mins and a season ticket. 

Commuting from a suburb of Birmingham (say Lichfield) would take 1hr 30mins and allow for a much nicer 3/4 bedroom home (£250,000 (£100k mortgage, £400 repayment)) and free up an extra £1k a month. School fees are cheaper in the midlands too. 

The time on the train can be utilised for answering emails etcetera.

for comparison a commute into and across Birmingham from Lichfield in the car takes 1-1.5hrs (leaving at 6am) any later and it'll be longer, 2-3 days a month you'll set off at 6am and arrive in the office at 9.30am-10.30am. 

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36 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said:

In Japan, the company you work for pays your commuting costs.  That's all it would take. 

Or make commuting costs tax-deductible for salaried employees.  If HM Government was losing tax it might care a bit more about commuting costs.

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23 minutes ago, longtomsilver said:

I said that if the cost of commuting was more than offset by the expense to living in the capital and it is.

There are more £100k jobs within the M25 than outside of it - assuming a basic salary of £95,000... the whopper £400,000 mortgage on a £550,000 2 bedroom flat, the monthly repayment alone would be £1,900 (25year term) from a basic net salary of £5,000. Wherever you are in London (outside of zone 2/3) you'll still have a commute of 30-45mins and a season ticket. 

Commuting from a suburb of Birmingham (say Lichfield) would take 1hr 30mins and allow for a much nicer 3/4 bedroom home (£250,000 (£100k mortgage, £400 repayment)) and free up an extra £1k a month. School fees are cheaper in the midlands too. 

The time on the train can be utilised for answering emails etcetera.

for comparison a commute into and across Birmingham from Lichfield in the car takes 1-1.5hrs (leaving at 6am) any later and it'll be longer, 2-3 days a month you'll set off at 6am and arrive in the office at 9.30am-10.30am. 

You're looking at at least an hour extra commute if from Birmingham than if from a London suburb.  So that's 2 extra hours a day (there and back), 10 hours a week extra commuting time, plus the extra cost in commuting. 

It's not just a case of 10 hours * hourly rate.  It's the depressing factor of it all.  The getting up an hour earlier.  Getting home an hour later.

Seriously, fu3k money when it comes to quality of life. 

I'd need a very big offset to accept that.  Your £95,000 salary sounds like a complete outlier salary compared to the typical commuter's salary.

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The flip side is that "47% Of All Jobs Will Be Automated By 2034", rail commuters may fall at some point, and they have to make hay whilst the sun still shines.

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2 minutes ago, 200p said:

"47% Of All Jobs Will Be Automated By 2034"

Why are most of us wasting our time working when our job could be automated anyway. Why spend money on commuter routes / HS3 when there will be less than half the commuters, why invest money in manufacturing when there will be no wages to buy the stuff, why own a car when there is no job to go to, the list goes on.

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I worked in the rail industry and there is an astonishingly large amount of waste. A lot of it due to privatisation. A lot of work that is performed by an internal or external design team is then checked (basically doubling the effort) by an internal Network Rail team. This work will already have been through a thorough check by the design team before it has been released and the design teams have numerous qualifications and checks done on them to ensure their work is to an acceptable standard. Other than the odd spelling mistake or personal preference I have never seen a design actually change at the second checking stage. It seems to be totally redundant and doesn't catch the big c0ck ups which mainly due to come about by making untested assumptions or not having the original drawings of what is there now. British Rail records weren't the greatest, Fail Track couldn't find their **** with both hands and Network Rail haven't bothered to fix it.

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1 hour ago, phantominvestor said:

How would you implement this?

Adding a surcharge to restrict people's travel based on political motivations will have perverse unforeseen consequences. I would say something else is amiss with the UK economy rather than artificially increasing travel cost by distance.

You could start by removing the subsidy from train travel. 

For all the outrage about the increase in rail travel it's good to remember that rail traveller's are funded by the taxpayer.

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9 minutes ago, assetrichcashpoor said:

I worked in the rail industry and there is an astonishingly large amount of waste. A lot of it due to privatisation. A lot of work that is performed by an internal or external design team is then checked (basically doubling the effort) by an internal Network Rail team. This work will already have been through a thorough check by the design team before it has been released and the design teams have numerous qualifications and checks done on them to ensure their work is to an acceptable standard. Other than the odd spelling mistake or personal preference I have never seen a design actually change at the second checking stage. It seems to be totally redundant and doesn't catch the big c0ck ups which mainly due to come about by making untested assumptions or not having the original drawings of what is there now. British Rail records weren't the greatest, Fail Track couldn't find their **** with both hands and Network Rail haven't bothered to fix it.

Plus a lot of that work is no doubt replicated many times across multiple private franchises each doing their own thing. plus management functions, policies, HR, etc which would all be more efficient at scale, or should be.

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1 hour ago, Will! said:

Or make commuting costs tax-deductible for salaried employees.  If HM Government was losing tax it might care a bit more about commuting costs.

Never understood the fairness in a builder being allowed to offset a HiLux and me not being able to deduct my season ticket.. When the train stops at Edmonton, I can assure HMRC that it's not a leisure activity. Ditto suits.

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42 minutes ago, canbuywontbuy said:

You're looking at at least an hour extra commute if from Birmingham than if from a London suburb.  So that's 2 extra hours a day (there and back), 10 hours a week extra commuting time, plus the extra cost in commuting. 

It's not just a case of 10 hours * hourly rate.  It's the depressing factor of it all.  The getting up an hour earlier.  Getting home an hour later.

Seriously, fu3k money when it comes to quality of life. 

I'd need a very big offset to accept that.  Your £95,000 salary sounds like a complete outlier salary compared to the typical commuter's salary.

It only really makes sense senior manager/director level. That first step-up or an interim position to keep unemployment off your CV. That said it'd be less off a headache to be made redundant from a London role with an external low cost base than to be mortgaged to the hilt - I could only imagine how depressing that'd be with further to fall, no money and bankruptcy round the corner. 

It's all conjecture anyway. :)

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8 minutes ago, monkeyman1974 said:

Never understood the fairness in a builder being allowed to offset a HiLux and me not being able to deduct my season ticket.. When the train stops at Edmonton, I can assure HMRC that it's not a leisure activity. Ditto suits.

Completely agree with that statement. Double taxation is a b1tch.

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20 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Plus a lot of that work is no doubt replicated many times across multiple private franchises each doing their own thing. plus management functions, policies, HR, etc which would all be more efficient at scale, or should be.

You're correct. One of the big problems comes from outsourcing. I've worked in a few organisations that have out sourced various bits of their work and it rarely seems to work as people had hoped. The cost of monitoring the outsourcing seems to be ignored or vastly underestimated. So it seems to be a shock when they realise the need to have X many people watching the out sourcing company or they'll be diddled. And they can only hold the company to account on certain service level agreements, if the company are doing a poor job overall but meeting the key criteria then there's nothing you can do about it. If you are able to amend a contract to add more performance clauses you then have to spend more of your own money on monitoring.

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I'm still yet to understand how in a 21st century, digitally connected economy, where I can talk to people all over the world via the internet; there is still a huge need to clump all businesses into the same small space. I don't see the need for it.

There seems to be some sort of blockage that stops companies even moving outside zone 2 for fear of being seen as irrelevant. I've worked in media for years and if you don't relocate to soho or east london then you barely exist. 

And here is the catch 22 I guess. Rail fares are ludicrously expensive, so everyone needs to live near london to save money.. so london wages are higher, so london living costs are higher, house prices are higher..so they don't save money.. but nobody is willing to relocate to somewhere further afield. So the situation doesn't change. 

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5 hours ago, Orsino said:

There's a thread on Off Topic about holding unpopular views. Personally I think commuting fares should be much higher for people commuting more than about 30 miles as people should be encouraged to live much nearer to their place of work. And there should be an economy where people live, not just concentrated into 5 square miles of central London. Conversely, I think individual tickets for business or leisure should be much cheaper to support a more diverse and dispersed economy.

To use the example above: If you work daily in London you should not be living in Birmingham. Birmingham should have a thriving economy and never will so long as many of its best inhabitants take their skills and energies to London every day. And people in both cities should be able to visit inexpensively, either for individual business meetings or family outings, so that the wealth of both cities is more equally and easily shared. 

There is no need to commute on a train 30 miles. PTW ( powered two wheeler technology ) access to bus lanes and safety devices have moved so far in twenty years. The can't fall off trike and access to bus lanes has made this a no brainer.

Alternatively get a Brompton cycle ride 5 miles either end.

4 PTW fit in the space of a car - moving 

The predijuice and ignorance from government, the general public and in fact society as a whole against motorcyclists or scooter riders is just pure snobbery

Hence to some extent my lack of sympathy for commuters, long distance commuters maybe. Anyone on the tube network - get a grip stop F**** around on your mountain bike for 2 hours at the weekend and commute on two wheels it is good for the soul and pocket !

Edited by Greg Bowman

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