What happens when the system really fails?

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

Warning this link is pretty disturbing, so if you are sensitive don't click it. It links to a Daily Mail article that contains photos from 1920s Russia during the Povolzhye famine which saw mass incidents of cannibalism.  The first photo show dismembered body parts of kids being eaten by peasants.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-photos-1920s-Russian-famine-turned-hopeless-peasants-cannibals-five-million-people-starved-death.html

Only posting this to show how bad things can really get, and perhaps to put current events into some sort of context.

That said we need to look out for demagoguery in our leaders and also point out that damaging trade relations probably isn't great in a country which is not presently self sufficient in food.

i don't think we are anywhere near this yet, or in any real danger yet, but if the course we are on is followed for too long, then who knows what might happen.

 

[dryrot]

Well it might if Labour get in. John McDonell is an admirer of the planned economy in general and Chairman Mao in particular. We might yet see a Great Leap Forward in the UK? (~50million starved in '58-62 IIRC) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/nov/25/the-chairman-mao-moment-mcdonnell-throws-the-little-red-book-at-osborne-video 

Edited December 30, 2016 by dryrot

[thisisthisitmaybe]

Make sure

1 - you have a gun

2 - you're a good shot

[davidg]

2 minutes ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

Make sure

1 - you have a gun

2 - you're a good shot

I was out practicing this morning, all the shots were dropping a bit to the left. I must adjust the sights.

[“Nasty Piece of work”]

Make friends with a fat lass.

[thewig]

if mob rule does catch on I plan to heat my home by burning DEBTjunkies, the bonus being once you capture a DEBTjunkie you have full access to their back catalogue of whining handwritten letters, which you can also burn once the DEBTjunkies are all gone.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

51 minutes ago, dryrot said:

Well it might if Labour get in. John McDonell is an admirer of the planned economy in general and Chairman Mao in particular. We might yet see a Great Leap Forward in the UK? (~50million starved in '58-62 IIRC) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/nov/25/the-chairman-mao-moment-mcdonnell-throws-the-little-red-book-at-osborne-video 

That said, a bit of low grade capitalism seems to reach the same end:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8360569.stm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2001/apr/08/russia.kateconnolly

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/577836/Severed-heads-found-at-a-Nigerian-restaurant-serving-human-flesh-to-diners/amp

 

There was also nasty hoax report circulated about China selling tinned human flesh to Africa. But needless to say anything like this on an industrial scale is rubbish, as there are many cheaper sources of meat.

Really this just comes down to low level acts of depredation.  Either people are pushed through starvation or it's some Nutter trying to get one over on the kebab shop.

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Warning this link is pretty disturbing, so if you are sensitive don't click it. It links to a Daily Mail article that contains photos from 1920s Russia during the Povolzhye famine which saw mass incidents of cannibalism.  The first photo show dismembered body parts of kids being eaten by peasants.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-photos-1920s-Russian-famine-turned-hopeless-peasants-cannibals-five-million-people-starved-death.html

Only posting this to show how bad things can really get, and perhaps to put current events into some sort of context.

That said we need to look out for demagoguery in our leaders and also point out that damaging trade relations probably isn't great in a country which is not presently self sufficient in food.

i don't think we are anywhere near this yet, or in any real danger yet, but if the course we are on is followed for too long, then who knows what might happen.

 

Food and starvation is a funny thing.

Providing you enough protein and carbs you should be OK. You can live on lentils and rice - bith can be stored in a box, without need of a fridge.

Sure its boring but its not starving.

I have dark thoughts about what-if-oil runs outs out. Not for me. Doubt it for my kids. Maybe my kids kids?

I think the world should be genuiely investing in nuclear power. Its just appears a fck up of state corps at the mo.

As I get older and I look at he fcked up area of Africa, which are still fcked up since Sir Bob. I dont think we should have fed them, well, not without birth control. Ethiopia is a total disaster. The BS claim of 'when incomes gets xxk/year then birth rates fall off' is BS as Ethippia is stuck at income ways below that rate and have a high birthrate for aid/cargo cult.

Maybe a bag rice + subdermal birht concrol thang?

Africa continues to disappoint. The place could be heaven on earth - its only around the Sahara that you get fmaines. Loads of fertile ground, loads of cheap labour, water is not too bad in most places.

If there was a place screaming out for capital investment then its Africa - imagine solar grids, nuclear generators piping to Europe, canal system of water, massive train investments. But all that happens is wars and bigmen.

 

 

 

[winkie]

Nature has given us everything we all need for free....Nature can just as easily take it away again, and there is nothing anyone will be able to do about it. 

[spyguy]

43 minutes ago, thewig said:

if mob rule does catch on I plan to heat my home by burning DEBTjunkies, the bonus being once you capture a DEBTjunkie you have full access to their back catalogue of whining handwritten letters, which you can also burn once the DEBTjunkies are all gone.

Oh oh, I can be Winkie

 

[spyguy]

Looks a bit like modern day Germany ...

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

Well it might if Labour get in. John McDonell is an admirer of the planned economy in general and Chairman Mao in particular. We might yet see a Great Leap Forward in the UK? (~50million starved in '58-62 IIRC) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/nov/25/the-chairman-mao-moment-mcdonnell-throws-the-little-red-book-at-osborne-video 

But the Labour Party isn't the only one with a five year plan!

Hammond officially abandoned plans to balance the budget in November, declaring his intention to spend £122bn more than Osborne instead. Meanwhile Carney put an additional £100bn on the national debt via his Term Funding Scheme and threw a further £60bn in QE at his chums in the City. Both cited Brexit as an explanation for these enormous borrowing revisions.

That's a provisional £282bn before 2020. Most of it in sovereign debt. On top of the £600bn accumulated by Gidiot during the previous parliament.

If McDonnell is a Maoist then I'd keenly suggest the Tory Party is similarly afflicted.

 

 

[EnglishinWales]

We already have indirect cannibalism via the old eating the young. I heard in 2020 the number of over 60s will outnumber the under 16s. Nothing good can come from that situation. 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

1 hour ago, EnglishinWales said:

We already have indirect cannibalism via the old eating the young. I heard in 2020 the number of over 60s will outnumber the under 16s. Nothing good can come from that situation. 

And with apparently milder winters due to global warming, I am guessing fewer over 60s being finished off my pneumonia.

 

[sPinwheel]

Will never happen here. Too many obese whales blubbering about.

[Venger]

6 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Only posting this to show how bad things can really get, and perhaps to put current events into some sort of context.

Not read the link, but not that fearful for a correction, and don't accept idea it will lead to to doom beyond doom, from situation with all those having mad-head claims on multiple BTLs and house prices in another dimension of irreal in many areas.

A guy dropped a parcel around to the property I live in a couple of days before Christmas.  Pulled up in a flash-flash new car.  Royal Mail had mistakenly delivered it to his address, in nice area 1/4 mile away. That was admittedly good of him.  I looked up house prices there.  All 4 and 5 beds.  He paid £180K in 1999.  Latest data for house sold on his road was 2015 at £790K.   HPC not all doom nor collapse of financial system.  More allowing opportunity for others and rebalance from extreme housing financialisation, that many already carrying the weight of on rented side.   Who don't exist to protect mad-gainz in the name of stopping doom.  Besides I thought you believed Breixt also = HPI+++++++.  Remain = HPI+++ and Brexit = HPI++++ ?

[stormymonday_2011]

Et In Arcadia Ego

Some people survive the worst of times and some people die in the best of times. 

Between 1815 and 1914 Britain was involved in only one significant conflict, the Crimean War. Throughout that period it was politically stable,  demagogue free and after the repeal of the Corn Laws there were no barriers to 'trade relations'. Despite this unprecedented period of peace and stability it managed to starve a good part of the Irish population in the late 1840s. Just to prove that was no accident it then repeated the trick in India several times including big famines in 1876-1878 and 1896-97.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876–78

Not that Ireland and India were unique in enjoying death and misery in a stable and peaceful world. After watching the recent drama on the Brontes I read that the average life expectancy of the population of Haworth, West Yorkshire in 1848 was 25 years.

Edited December 31, 2016 by stormymonday_2011

[spyguy]

2 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Et In Arcadia Ego

Some people survive the worst of times and some people die in the best of times. 

Between 1815 and 1914 Britain was involved in only one significant conflict, the Crimean War. Throughout that period it was politically stable,  demagogue free and after the repeal of the Corn Laws there were no barriers to 'trade relations'. Despite this unprecedented period of peace and stability it managed to starve a good part of the Irish population in the late 1840s. Just to prove that was no accident it then repeated the trick in India several times including big famines in 1876-1878 and 1896-97.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876–78

Not that Ireland and India were unique in enjoying death and misery in a stable and peaceful world. After watching the recent drama on the Brontes I read that the average life expectancy of the population of Howarth, West Yorkshire in 1848 was 25 years.

Indeed. Its was mid 60s up til the early 1900s. Then dropped like a brick with WW1 + WW2.

 

[dryrot]

5 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Not that Ireland and India were unique in enjoying death and misery in a stable and peaceful world. 

Q: What two things prevent a famine?

A. Democracy and a (relatively) free press.

( Amartya Kumar Sen ). All the major famines (India, Ukraine '30s, China 50s etc) were politically driven. Even Ethiopia was starving due to war and marxist revolutionary policies. Pity St Bob never pointed that out...)

> After watching the recent drama on the Brontes I read that the average life expectancy of the population of Howarth, West Yorkshire in 1848 was 25 years.

I've never really caught the life expectancy but - a huge amount is infant mortality - if you made it to 20 you'd prolly live till 60(?)

[Big Orange]

7 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

 

Between 1815 and 1914 Britain was involved in only one significant conflict, the Crimean War. Throughout that period it was politically stable,  demagogue free and after the repeal of the Corn Laws there were no barriers to 'trade relations'. Despite this unprecedented period of peace and stability it managed to starve a good part of the Irish population in the late 1840s. Just to prove that was no accident it then repeated the trick in India several times including big famines in 1876-1878 and 1896-97.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876–78

 

India with its rainy season dependent harvest and similarly callous native lords was a huge famine engine long before British rule and while no severe famine in past decade, even to this day it has oddly severe malnourishment worse than parts of Africa, despite food surplus achieved by the independent, democratic Indian government.

Ireland and Scotland were regions historically more prone to famine in previous centuries, Ireland had a comparably severe famine in the late 18th century when it inlets froze over, and the British/Irish land owners put too many eggs in one basket by encouraging their dependent tenants to grow the same potato crop in shallow, close together plots - the following catastrophe was more beyond the TPTB's means of humanitarian relief and poor planning than down to a evil plan to starve.

Irish auxiliary soldiers stationed in British run India were allowed to donate charity money home.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Big Orange

[stormymonday_2011]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

Q: What two things prevent a famine?

A. Democracy and a (relatively) free press.

( Amartya Kumar Sen ). All the major famines (India, Ukraine '30s, China 50s etc) were politically driven. Even Ethiopia was starving due to war and marxist revolutionary policies. Pity St Bob never pointed that out...)

> After watching the recent drama on the Brontes I read that the average life expectancy of the population of Howarth, West Yorkshire in 1848 was 25 years.

I've never really caught the life expectancy but - a huge amount is infant mortality - if you made it to 20 you'd prolly live till 60(?)

If Amartya Kumar Sen is right what does that say about Britain in the 19th Century  or even now?

[John The Pessimist]

8 minutes ago, Big Orange said:

India with its rainy season dependent harvest and similarly callous native lords was a huge famine engine long before British rule and while no severe famine in past decade, even to this day it has oddly severe malnourishment worse than parts of Africa, despite food surplus achieved by the independent, democratic Indian government.

Ireland and Scotland were regions historically more prone to famine in previous centuries, Ireland had a comparably severe famine in the late 18th century when it inlets froze over, and the British/Irish land owners put too many eggs in one basket by encouraging their dependent tenants to grow the same potato crop in shallow, close together plots - the following catastrophe was more beyond the TPTB's means of humanitarian relief and poor planning than down to a evil plan to starve.

Irish auxiliary soldiers stationed in British run India were allowed to donate charity money home.

During the famine, Ireland remained a net exporter of food to Britain. Cash crops continued to be exported. This is why the Irish famine is considered by many to have been an act of genocide.

http://ighm.org/exports-in-famine-times/

[stormymonday_2011]

1 hour ago, Big Orange said:

India with its rainy season dependent harvest and similarly callous native lords was a huge famine engine long before British rule and while no severe famine in past decade, even to this day it has oddly severe malnourishment worse than parts of Africa, despite food surplus achieved by the independent, democratic Indian government.

Ireland and Scotland were regions historically more prone to famine in previous centuries, Ireland had a comparably severe famine in the late 18th century when it inlets froze over, and the British/Irish land owners put too many eggs in one basket by encouraging their depentent tenants to grow the same potato crop in shallow, close together plots - the following catastrophe was more beyond the TPTB's means of humanitarian relief than down to a evil plan to starve.

Oh I have heard all the - 'it was historically inevitable that the peasants would starve arguments' - about India and Ireland

The question is Malthusian political and economic determinism any more valid than its Marxist equivalent

It should be noted that Sir Charles Trevelyan who presided over the Irish potatoe famine had studied under Malthus so was as much as a political idealogue as Lenin and Stalin under the influence of Marx.

Incidentally Malthus taught at Haileybury the East India Company college from 1805-1834 so his ideas influenced the administrators who presided over both the Irish and Indian famines

With regard to the British Empire all the historical inevitability of famine argument proves is that it was as useless at running these  peoples lives as any of its predecessors.

That is hardly a justification for its existence.

Moreover unlike the Povolzhye famine which happened after a terrible Civil War in Russia the ones in Ireland and India occurred when the British Empire in its century of maximum power, peace and stability.  So it would appear that even without a collapse of the 'system' you can starve.

Anway as Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn  said if you want to kill millions get yourself an ideology

The one thing I do agree about is that 'rent seeking' behaviour by landlords played not an insignificant role in the Irish famines of 1740 and 1848 as well as the Indian famines in tne same century since what ever little surplus the peasants accrued to tie them over periods of hardship was extracted from them. 

A point perhaps to ponder about the way modern Britain is going ?

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by stormymonday_2011

[Uncle_Kenny]

Regarding the food situation and the UK, I do remember seeing on one of these "Benefits Street" type shows one of the women getting all upset when she saw friends/acquaintances posting pictures on facebook of a freezer full of food as a way of bragging how well they are doing. It appears that for a certain part of the population having access to food is considered a sign or prosperity, rather than simply being taken for granted.

[Uncle_Kenny]

There is obviously a huge gulf between the situation the UK is currently in, and the situation depicted in the OP. There is a spectrum from here to there. Along the spectrum, I wouldn't be surprised to see a collapse in the pound and/or defaults on UK government debt in the future. Pensions and public sector salaries not being paid, patients left to die in hospitals that would otherwise be routine treatments due to lack of resources. Look at Russia in the early 90's/Argentina/Greece for a taste of what is to come.

There is little incentive to do anything about it now. The politicians will just shrug their shoulders and walk away, claim that the events where unforeseen or just blame some bank/hedge fund somewhere.