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Corbyn's NY speech


SarahBell
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55 minutes ago, malk said:

Not pejoratively but I really don't get why you call yourself a blue collar labour type? Your work doesn't sound blue collar and you don't seem to be particularly sympathetic to socialism? Dan Jarvis would have been another Labour suit parroting tory lite policies and doing nothing to help anyone (or the interests of this site). Rather than ridiculous policies like the Bedroom Tax (that's not at you) the homes pledge should however be applauded and backed:

"We will build a million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes, through our public investment strategy. We will end insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls, secure tenancies and a charter of private tenants’ rights, and increase access to affordable home ownership."

Now I'm sure someone will be along to say that he won't do it or whatever but if you can't take a major pledge at face value then there's little point engaging at all (which isn't per se a bad idea!).

As for who else instead of Corbyn, Clive Lewis is the obvious choice but if you want a populist type then Richard Burgon is the obvious choice for anyone that knows anything about Labour Party politics.

Im not sypathetic to socialism,its a daft idea. Im from the collective end of Labour, not the moonbeam and magic end.

I work, that makes me working class. Ok not a mine. But neither is pretending to work for 16h selling party bags.

You dont make things more secure by introducing rent controls. You price io btl lending correctly. io mortgages should not exist, they are amassive subb from the tax payer, who backstop the banks, to the idiot leverage LL.

The bedrom tax is not ridiculous. You have social housing. When its under used it goes to a family, not an oap. Its social housing, not free housing.

Get people into work to end poverty. People arnt poor if they are not working 40,h, they are not working. We pay a fortune on education. If people dont turn up to svhool thrn dont give them benefits.

My GPs did not struggle to cast off a parasetic upper class to have it be replaced by a lower class parasite, on tax credits, serving as dumb votes.

My nan was involved in the move to form collective heath insurance, which became the nhs. She did not do that to have a bunch of nhs workers take control, or a bunch of diabetics, stuffing their face.

The stupid, oh lets give poor people money Labour is dumb.

If yiu are going to have a social system with redistribution then you have to be hard and jydgemental. Otherwuse people take the p2ss and the system loses support. Brown has virtually destroyed the welfare state and the uk economy.

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6 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Im not sypathetic to socialism,its a daft idea. Im from the collective end of Labour, not the moonbeam and magic end.

I work, that makes me working class. Ok not a mine. But neither is pretending to work for 16h selling party bags.

You dont make things more secure by introducing rent controls. You price io btl lending correctly. io mortgages should not exist, they are amassive subb from the tax payer, who backstop the banks, to the idiot leverage LL.

The bedrom tax is not ridiculous. You have social housing. When its under used it goes to a family, not an oap. Its social housing, not free housing.

Get people into work to end poverty. People arnt poor if they are not working 40,h, they are not working. We pay a fortune on education. If people dont turn up to svhool thrn dont give them benefits.

My GPs did not struggle to cast off a parasetic upper class to have it be replaced by a lower class parasite, on tax credits, serving as dumb votes.

My nan was involved in the move to form collective heath insurance, which became the nhs. She did not do that to have a bunch of nhs workers take control, or a bunch of diabetics, stuffing their face.

The stupid, oh lets give poor people money Labour is dumb.

If yiu are going to have a social system with redistribution then you have to be hard and jydgemental. Otherwuse people take the p2ss and the system loses support. Brown has virtually destroyed the welfare state and the uk economy.

"The Labour Party is a democratic socialist Party." It's on the back of the card. It's fine to think that socialism is a daft idea but if you do then you're not a labour type of any collar.

On the other bits. Working doesn't per se make you working class (and my guess is you know that) or else the distinction is facile. Of course the party bag point is entirely correct but it comes from your point about making the social system being hard and judgemental. Because of that misguided premise the berks in politics created the tax credit scheme. I'm a UBI person with controls on rentiers but that makes too much sense for current politics and the culture of punishment.

The rest of your post blames people for being controlled by "elite" rentiers that can't be voted out by the masses. Rational self interest (to the thin extent I believe in it) means that they should take all the welfare they can get because the cost of living has been inflated by corporatism and rentierism.

Now a few can get around it by "doing well" but I can't see how your prescriptions work in a neo-feudal/late capitalist world.

Edited by malk
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I am actually slightly tempted to get into politics myself, but I have no idea how to do it.

Part of me thinks that any progression in the main parties would just involve lots of **** kissing and going against my beliefs in common sense.

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28 minutes ago, malk said:

"The Labour Party is a democratic socialist Party." It's on the back of the card. It's fine to think that socialism is a daft idea but if you do then you're not a labour type of any collar.

On the other bits. Working doesn't per se make you working class (and my guess is you know that) or else the distinction is facile. Of course the party bag point is entirely correct but it comes from your point about making the social system being hard and judgemental. Because of that misguided premise the berks in politics created the tax credit scheme. I'm a UBI person with controls on rentiers but that makes too much sense for current politics and the culture of punishment.

The rest of your post blames people for being controlled by "elite" rentiers that can't be voted out by the masses. Rational self interest (to the thin extent I believe in it) means that they should take all the welfare they can get because the cost of living has been inflated by corporatism and rentierism.

Now a few can get around it by "doing well" but I can't see how your prescriptions work in a neo-feudal/late capitalist world.

Clause four was also on the back of the card and was one of the first things that Bliar removed (btw have I heard correctly that he is to be knighted for his work to further peace?) 

not sticking up for spy per se, but working class and identification as such is complicated. I would argue that it is not about the job that you do, afterall successive governments, labour included have done their best to decimate and dismantle our industrial base.  It's more about the set of values that you hold.

Edited by One-percent
Fecking crapple again
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7 minutes ago, Reebo said:

I am actually slightly tempted to get into politics myself, but I have no idea how to do it.

Part of me thinks that any progression in the main parties would just involve lots of **** kissing and going against my beliefs in common sense.

First step reboo is to sell your soul and leave behind any morals you one had.  At least that seems to be the way that our current crop of politicians work

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1 minute ago, One-percent said:

First step reboo is to sell your soul and leave behind any morals you one had.  At least that seems to be the way that our current crop of politicians work

I agree. There seems to be no way in for anyone who doesn't step the line.

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29 minutes ago, malk said:

"The Labour Party is a democratic socialist Party." It's on the back of the card. It's fine to think that socialism is a daft idea but if you do then you're not a labour type of any collar.

On the other bits. Working doesn't per se make you working class (and my guess is you know that) or else the distinction is facile. Of course the party bag point is entirely correct but it comes from your point about making the social system being hard and judgemental. Because of that misguided premise the berks in politics created the tax credit scheme. I'm a UBI person with controls on rentiers but that makes too much sense for current politics and the culture of punishment.

The rest of your post blames people for being controlled by "elite" rentiers that can't be voted out by the masses. Rational self interest (to the thin extent I believe in it) means that they should take all the welfare they can get because the cost of living has been inflated by corporatism and rentierism.

Now a few can get around it by "doing well" but I can't see how your prescriptions work in a neo-feudal/late capitalist world.

If Labour was a socialist party than thats all it would say.

The democratic socialist text is a sop to both left and right wings of the party.

Labour has its roots more in working class collectice action than it does in some poncey middle class political theory.

Working makes you working class. Theres a clue in the verb. Labour was crwated when a s all number dud not work, living off the working mans rent. Middle class is just a daily mail construct.

The tax credit system wa created purely by that moron Brown. He saw a reasonably successful system in the US, took it, fck it up, bumped up the money, fcking it up more, opened it to the rest of EU, virtually guaranteeing the end of the uk welfare state.

I did not accuse anyone being controlled by an elite. Its just lazy, thoughtless easy money. Its a tesp that people have run into.

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10 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Clause four was also on the back of the card and was one of the first things that Bliar removed (btw have I heard correctly that he is to be knighted for his work to further peace?) 

not stocking up for spy per set, but working class and identification as such is complicated. I would argue that it is not about the job that you do, afterall successive governments, labour included have done their best to decimate and dismantle our industrial base.  It's more about the set of values that you hold.

Cluase 4 was a stupid middke class concept.

A government can control companies with owning and running them.

Companies are best left to run themsrlves, within some rules. Frankly, a quick scan of most orgs that ukgov operates should put you off.

My nhs Nan was not keen on the nhs. She wanted a collective insurance scheme, with healthcare delivered by orgs - think charity hospitals. She was fed up with the nhs by the time shed died. It became her nigytmare - a large, self serving org.

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3 minutes ago, spyguy said:

If Labour was a socialist party than thats all it would say.

The democratic socialist text is a sop to both left and right wings of the party.

Labour has its roots more in working class collectice action than it does in some poncey middle class political theory.

Working makes you working class. Theres a clue in the verb. Labour was crwated when a s all number dud not work, living off the working mans rent. Middle class is just a daily mail construct.

The tax credit system wa created purely by that moron Brown. He saw a reasonably successful system in the US, took it, fck it up, bumped up the money, fcking it up more, opened it to the rest of EU, virtually guaranteeing the end of the uk welfare state.

I did not accuse anyone being controlled by an elite. Its just lazy, thoughtless easy money. Its a tesp that people have run into.

malk

I didn't say accuse, I said blame. If you truly think that working makes you working class then there's no point continuing this.

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3 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Cluase 4 was a stupid middke class concept.

A government can control companies with owning and running them.

Companies are best left to run themsrlves, within some rules. Frankly, a quick scan of most orgs that ukgov operates should put you off.

My nhs Nan was not keen on the nhs. She wanted a collective insurance scheme, with healthcare delivered by orgs - think charity hospitals. She was fed up with the nhs by the time shed died. It became her nigytmare - a large, self serving org.

Disagree Spy. It was one of the founding fundamental principles of the Labour Party. It is/was concerned with stopping the exploitation that we see today. I understand your nan's horror at the way the NHS has morphed from what it should be. That's a different issue.  The cottage hospital in my home town was bought and paid for by local people. It was then handed to the NHS when it was formed. Then Branson was to be given it, just like that, as part of virgin health. Just wrong. It belongs to the towns people, not big business or anyone else with a vested interest.

the problem is that for thirty years or more, people have been encouraged to see themselves as individuals, not part of a network, working for the greater good.  Greed and personal wealth has been put  before social good. 

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23 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Clause four was also on the back of the card and was one of the first things that Bliar removed (btw have I heard correctly that he is to be knighted for his work to further peace?) 

not sticking up for spy per se, but working class and identification as such is complicated. I would argue that it is not about the job that you do, afterall successive governments, labour included have done their best to decimate and dismantle our industrial base.  It's more about the set of values that you hold.

Of course, many of us know this from experience. My dad was a spark that eventually became a factory owner. His values didn't change but he still identifies as working class despite having owned the means of production. My early childhood was working class but I was then the first in my family to go to university and now I'm a philosophy grad with a household income in the top ten percent of the country. It is complicated but a blithe statement about "working" making you working class is mendacious.

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1 minute ago, malk said:

Of course, many of us know this from experience. My dad was a spark that eventually became a factory owner. His values didn't change but he still identifies as working class despite having owned the means of production. My early childhood was working class but I was then the first in my family to go to university and now I'm a philosophy grad with a household income in the top ten percent of the country. It is complicated but a blithe statement about "working" making you working class is mendacious.

I think many working class people have trod this road. I'm the first and only person from my family to have gone to university. I think we agree, it is not the job you do but the values you hold that define. 

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4 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Disagree Spy. It was one of the founding fundamental principles of the Labour Party. It is/was concerned with stopping the exploitation that we see today. I understand your nan's horror at the way the NHS has morphed from what it should be. That's a different issue.  The cottage hospital in my home town was bought and paid for by local people. It was then handed to the NHS when it was formed. Then Branson was to be given it, just like that, as part of virgin health. Just wrong. It belongs to the towns people, not big business or anyone else with a vested interest.

the problem is that for thirty years or more, people have been encouraged to see themselves as individuals, not part of a network, working for the greater good.  Greed and personal wealth has been put  before social good. 

Exactly. The managerial that has infected the NHS was a deliberate imposition to undermine it, reduce clinical oversight and to create a pre existing cost base that can be maintained/inflated by an eventual corporate controller.

There is no inherent difference between public and private ownership. Both can be vertically or horizontally organised, well or poorly. Plus extracted profit can only be seen as an inefficiency.

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7 hours ago, One-percent said:

Disagree Spy. It was one of the founding fundamental principles of the Labour Party. It is/was concerned with stopping the exploitation that we see today. I understand your nan's horror at the way the NHS has morphed from what it should be. That's a different issue.  The cottage hospital in my home town was bought and paid for by local people. It was then handed to the NHS when it was formed. Then Branson was to be given it, just like that, as part of virgin health. Just wrong. It belongs to the towns people, not big business or anyone else with a vested interest.

the problem is that for thirty years or more, people have been encouraged to see themselves as individuals, not part of a network, working for the greater good.  Greed and personal wealth has been put  before social good. 

No. Clause 4 was a massive mistake/stupid idea.

Exploitation and regulation is achieve via rules + laws.

Having a political party in  charge of industry will be a disaster. Have you read the minutes of decisions took by the like of Tonny Benn during the 60s/70s?

Branson was not ;given; Whitby hospital. Virgin care have  a short contract to provide low end medical services and out reach clinics. The hospital remains owned by the NHS. Bar providing convalescence, small hospital are just no good - too  expensive, too dangerous.

The problem is that people confuse the capital cost of public service and their operating cost. The capital costs might seem large, bu the wage bill is huge.

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7 hours ago, malk said:

Exactly. The managerial that has infected the NHS was a deliberate imposition to undermine it, reduce clinical oversight and to create a pre existing cost base that can be maintained/inflated by an eventual corporate controller.

There is no inherent difference between public and private ownership. Both can be vertically or horizontally organised, well or poorly. Plus extracted profit can only be seen as an inefficiency.

The managerial ism of the NHS is purely self created within he NHS.

The structure replicates what you saw in the USSR end of days.

The NHS is the most socialised health service in Europe. Even France manages to mix private and public services.

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3 hours ago, spyguy said:

The managerial ism of the NHS is purely self created within he NHS.

The structure replicates what you saw in the USSR end of days.

The NHS is the most socialised health service in Europe. Even France manages to mix private and public services.

Do you have any, non anecdotal, evidence for this?

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3 hours ago, spyguy said:

No. Clause 4 was a massive mistake/stupid idea.

Exploitation and regulation is achieve via rules + laws.

Having a political party in  charge of industry will be a disaster. Have you read the minutes of decisions took by the like of Tonny Benn during the 60s/70s?

Branson was not ;given; Whitby hospital. Virgin care have  a short contract to provide low end medical services and out reach clinics. The hospital remains owned by the NHS. Bar providing convalescence, small hospital are just no good - too  expensive, too dangerous.

The problem is that people confuse the capital cost of public service and their operating cost. The capital costs might seem large, bu the wage bill is huge.

Clause four was the founding principle of the Labour Party.  The point when it was removed marked the switch from traditional to new labour and look at the mess the party was left in by Bliar and your anti hero brown.  If the plp and the labour movement more generally want to again become a serious force within politics, it needs to offer an alternative to Tory lite it currdoes. Readoption of clause four would mark them out as both different to the tories and a party for ordinary working people, which at the moment no party represents

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17 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Where else did it come from?


The NHS  has excluded any form non-NHS input input for years. Its an insular  clique.

From forced marketisation in the 80s creating pseudo competition was a political choice. Running the service as independent PCTs rather than a holistic service was a political choice. Getting a former private health exec to run NHS England was a political choice.

Lots of people profit from the continued privatisation of the NHS and cost effectiveness and outcomes suffer.

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Just now, malk said:

From forced marketisation in the 80s creating pseudo competition was a political choice. Running the service as independent PCTs rather than a holistic service was a political choice. Getting a former private health exec to run NHS England was a political choice.

Lots of people profit from the continued privatisation of the NHS and cost effectiveness and outcomes suffer.

No.

Any market methods were on the fringe and barely changed the org.

 

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2 hours ago, malk said:

From forced marketisation in the 80s creating pseudo competition was a political choice. Running the service as independent PCTs rather than a holistic service was a political choice. Getting a former private health exec to run NHS England was a political choice.

Lots of people profit from the continued privatisation of the NHS and cost effectiveness and outcomes suffer.

The NHS internal market in England is the worst of both worlds:  public sector lack of accountability and private sector abuse of local monopolies.  The NHS in Wales and Scotland (where there's no internal market) is by no means problem free though.  JC and the PLP don't have any ideas for that. 

Edited by Will!
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1 hour ago, maverick73 said:

I wonder how many would vote against the Labour party if the manifesto pledge included raising interest rates to 2%?

 

It woukd say raising irs for privarte sector workers. Public sector workers would get mortgages at negative rates.

Theres no policy so simple that corbyn could not fck up.

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