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SarahBell

An oath, an oath, my kingdom for an oath

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38355373

 

Dame Louise said some sections of society did not accept British values such as tolerance.

Mr Javid said he was "drawn" to Dame Louise's recommendation to bring in an oath of allegiance.




Include school kids as well, every morning in assembly when they sing hymns of the christian persuasion, this being a christian country?

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The really do not have the first clue of how to deal with the monster they have created. 

Good idea about morning assemblies Sarah.  Then perhaps we can stop feeling guilty about celebrating Christmas and stop calling Christmas lights, winter lights or whatever it is we are meant to call them in our PC world.  Oh, and perhaps actually apply equality legislation to stop women being discriminated against. Oh, and apply the legislation around fgm so that at least one person is made an example of 

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I don't agree Mikhail. The head of our country is also the head of the church.  The church (or at least a nod to attending church services) is an integral part of many other organisations. We use the Christian organisations to mark the most important parts of life, birth, marriage and death.  This might be declining but historically it is so.  Look at the number of churches in any area and how far back in time they go.  I don't believe in sky fairies but do see the church as interwoven into our, culture, heritage and general life. An example of this is that I'm off to visit the local 12th century church in the town tomorrow to have a look at all the Christmas trees, designed and decorated by different facets of the local community. 

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13 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

An oath is very unBritish.

And we are not a Christian Country, we are probably the world's most secular country.

Religion should be kept away from the state.

Yes!

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29 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

An oath is very unBritish.

And we are not a Christian Country, we are probably the world's most secular country.

Religion should be kept away from the state.

We are most certainly not secular, the house of lords if full of religious figures etc 

Being secular means religion is removed from all state institutions politics and governance, France is truly secular and that is one of the reasons they have been targeted by religious extremists      

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Let's burn Teflon Tony, says my boss, Satan!

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1 hour ago, hotairmail said:

I have sympathy with your sentiment Mikhail but the Constitution is running well behind the reality. The only major change in the last 50 years is the ability of the Monarch to marry a Catholic. We haven't even had a Catholic Prime Minister yet (although the fake Tony Blair did seem to do some shenanigans to stop him going to hell after he left office - btw Tony if there is a hell, you're going there...In fact your soul is probably in torment right now).

The whole constitutional settlement and differing levels of democracy across these isles is a total disgrace and seems designed to create division.

An oath is very Germanic which you could argue is what most Anglo Saxons are.

Well as the Head of State in the UK is the Head of the Church of England politics and religion are always intermixed

Oaths of allegiance have a pretty long history in Britain going back at least to Magna Carta.

At the Reformation Henry VIII made every subject in the kingdom swear the Oath of Supremacy after the split with Rome. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Supremacy

All MPs, members of the House of Lords and Privy Councillors have to swear an oath of allegiance to the crown as do many other groups including new citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kingdom)

The proposal to extend it to all paid public servants and those holding public office is not exactly controversial

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

The proposal to extend it to all paid public servants and those holding public office is not exactly controversial

It might not be controversial, but is it effective? I'll swear to tell the truth on any sky-fairy text you like, and then happily lie my **** off. Those who made up these works of fiction peddled them as truth. Why expect someone without faith or of different faith not to play the advantage and follow suit?

How do you get the truth out of someone like me? Just listen. It's my default mode. Liars on the other hand are gonna lie when it suits. Oaths are useless.

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1 hour ago, Sledgehead said:

It might not be controversial, but is it effective? I'll swear to tell the truth on any sky-fairy text you like, and then happily lie my **** off. Those who made up these works of fiction peddled them as truth. Why expect someone without faith or of different faith not to play the advantage and follow suit?

How do you get the truth out of someone like me? Just listen. It's my default mode. Liars on the other hand are gonna lie when it suits. Oaths are useless.

Nothing new about oaths being broken either.

That has as long a history as well.

I suppose the attraction to those in authority it is the appearance of setting the oath. Those who break them are then condemned  out of their own mouths so to speak. They have also proved remarkably effective at keeping certain groups loyal in certain situations. Hitler used one with great effect to secure the loyalty of most of the Wermacht in the 1930s. Anyway they are certainly not a new feature in British history.

 

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4 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

An oath is very unBritish.

And we are not a Christian Country, we are probably the world's most secular country.

Religion should be kept away from the state.

Is it a question of religion being kept away from the state, or the state being kept away from religion?  America, at least by the constitution, is a secular state.  It's also filled to the brim with religious loonies who do far more damage than the few bishops in the House of Lords.  The point of having an established church is that it allows control over that church rather than a free-for-all where every fruitcake cult is treated with equal respect.

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I was brought-up in a Christian tradition - and despite being a non-believer, I think my life has been enriched by that.

The teachings of Jesus are not a bad way to live your life - whether you're religious or not..!

And singing hymns is most certainly good for you.

"The Day Thou Gavest Lord Is Ended" is my particular favourite.

I'm sure you all have your own...

 

XYY

                                                                                                               

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

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5 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

An oath is very unBritish.

And we are not a Christian Country, we are probably the world's most secular country.

Religion should be kept away from the state.

I like Scotth Porage Oatth!

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1 hour ago, The XYY Man said:

I was brought-up in a Christian tradition - and despite being a non-believer, I think my life has been enriched by that.

The teachings of Jesus are not a bad way to live your life - whether you're religious or not..!

And singing hymns is most certainly good for you.

"The Day Thou Gavest Lord Is Ended" is my particular favourite.

I'm sure you all have your own...

 

XYY

 

                                                                                                               

 

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

 

My favorite from school assembly was "All things bright and beautiful" which I'll happily sing along to now even though I'm not religious in the slightest.

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4 hours ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Well as the Head of State in the UK is the Head of the Church of England politics and religion are always intermixed

Oaths of allegiance have a pretty long history in Britain going back at least to Magna Carta.

At the Reformation Henry VIII made every subject in the kingdom swear the Oath of Supremacy after the split with Rome. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Supremacy

All MPs, members of the House of Lords and Privy Councillors have to swear an oath of allegiance to the crown as do many other groups including new citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kingdom)

The proposal to extend it to all paid public servants and those holding public office is not exactly controversial

 

 

 

so we have sufficient oaths on statute already.

what is missing is sufficient punishment for misdemeanour or abuse of such oath....and the house of commons/public service,councils and judiciary seems like a jolly good place to start enforcing it.

javid is quite right,they should be setting a much better example than they have been,and now it's time to clean house.

 

vis a vis new entrants:10 year probationary period,any convictions adding to total of 12months during that period and it's out on the next plane.no appeals.

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1 hour ago, Reebo said:

My favorite from school assembly was "All things bright and beautiful" which I'll happily sing along to now even though I'm not religious in the slightest.

Mine, or at least the one I find most moving is "for those in peril on the sea".  Remember singing that one on Remembrance Sundays as a kid in the church on the cliff top. Very moving 

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Some clarification of the scope of British tolerance would be helpful. For instance, as a nation, are we now tolerant of waterboarding, or not? How about the practice of rendition? Or the extra-judicial execution of individuals via drone strikes from the edge of space?

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This may be enacted for new entrants, but I don't believe it for a moment. Even if it was, do you believe that the public service unions will allow it to be retrospective? Tower Hamlets et al will continue to be corrupt ethnic kleptocracies. This will make no difference what so ever.

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