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stuckin2up2down

Ditch the pensions triple lock and free bus passes for the elderly to helps fund care bills, urges head of the NHS

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Yes please. Callers on LBC are doing my nut in - "I've paid my stamp for 50 years and get barely anything" :rolleyes: I'd much rather have your barely anything, is it vastly more than the barely anything I will get.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4035352/Ditch-pensions-triple-lock-free-bus-passes-elderly-helps-fund-care-bills-urges-head-NHS.html

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As inflation may well exceed 2.5% next year and for a year or two after the TL may now be arguably irrelevant. The cost of bus passes et al is probably very small and will make very little difference to the care budget.

Good idea.

 

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16 minutes ago, crouch said:

As inflation may well exceed 2.5% next year and for a year or two after the TL may now be arguably irrelevant. The cost of bus passes et al is probably very small and will make very little difference to the care budget.

Good idea.

 

Not having extremely generous salaries (plus the state pension) and index linked final salary pensions for NHS middle and senior managers would probably free up a lot more cash for the care budget. 

On a more serious note - I know of a hospital where one ward has so few permanent trained local staff that they run entire shifts with mostly agency staff. The agency staff cost about double that of a permie, and usually need micro managing, e.g. because they don't know where anything or anywhere is, and speak poor English. I'm guessing that that situation is replicated across hundreds of wards in scores of hospitals in the UK. So if Head of NHS wants to free up funds, I suggest they get less incompetent at recruiting and training medical staff.

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12 minutes ago, newbonic said:

Not having extremely generous salaries (plus the state pension) and index linked final salary pensions for NHS middle and senior managers would probably free up a lot more cash for the care budget. 

On a more serious note - I know of a hospital where one ward has so few permanent trained local staff that they run entire shifts with mostly agency staff. The agency staff cost about double that of a permie, and usually need micro managing, e.g. because they don't know where anything or anywhere is, and speak poor English. I'm guessing that that situation is replicated across hundreds of wards in scores of hospitals in the UK. So if Head of NHS wants to free up funds, I suggest they get less incompetent at recruiting and training medical staff.


Yes! 
Cap pensions to minimum level for everyone.

Cap wages.

And create an in house agency for each hospital. (Hasn't someone said they do this) but put people onto proper contracts where possible.

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37 minutes ago, crouch said:

As inflation may well exceed 2.5% next year and for a year or two after the TL may now be arguably irrelevant. The cost of bus passes et al is probably very small and will make very little difference to the care budget.

Good idea.

 

Sorry the TL is irrelevant? The SP is the largest part of the welfare bill. Why not freeze the SP until 2020, like all other benefits have been.

Bus passes are killing many routes as they now pay something like 50-30% of the normal fare.

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2 minutes ago, stuckin2up2down said:

Sorry the TL is irrelevant? The SP is the largest part of the welfare bill. Why not freeze the SP until 2020, like all other benefits have been.

Bus passes are killing many routes as they now pay something like 50-30% of the normal fare.

The SP is not regarded as a benefit. Benefits for many are a short term thing ( you claim JSA; you find a job,,,); the SP is not.

My point about bus passes was not about the economics but the fact that eliminating them would not yield much for the care budget. Personally I agree; I don't see why there should be free bus passes.

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A lot of the NHS spend is directed is on social care.

We are providing a 600/night hotel to OAPs.

Build care homes. Dont over spec/gold plate /overregulate them.

If he OAP is safe, warm and fed then dont worry too much about the other stuff.

 

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1 hour ago, stuckin2up2down said:

Yes please. Callers on LBC are doing my nut in - "I've paid my stamp for 50 years and get barely anything" :rolleyes: I'd much rather have your barely anything, is it vastly more than the barely anything I will get.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4035352/Ditch-pensions-triple-lock-free-bus-passes-elderly-helps-fund-care-bills-urges-head-NHS.html

A sad state of affairs that we have a retired population that is so numerically challenged. Those with an ounce of intyelligence know it for what it is, a Ponzi scheme. Nevertheless if old folks believe in alchemy and a few shillings a week to a few pounds eventually becoming a  health and state pension package then the government must oblige. Shit who do you think keeps Government in power, they believe in Old Folk.

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23 minutes ago, crouch said:

The SP is not regarded as a benefit. Benefits for many are a short term thing ( you claim JSA; you find a job,,,); the SP is not.

My point about bus passes was not about the economics but the fact that eliminating them would not yield much for the care budget. Personally I agree; I don't see why there should be free bus passes.

SP is a benefit. Do you not include people with disabilities as receiving benefits too? Their payments have been frozen until 2020.

Many of today's pensioners think of it as an entitlement, as if they have never had anything from the state until the day they retire. When most will take out far more than they ever paid in. Especially if they had children. Wouldn't it be great if we could all retire with state help for 30 years. Someone has to pay for it. Most people are really really stupid and don't understand it yet.

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7 minutes ago, stuckin2up2down said:

SP is a benefit. Do you not include people with disabilities as receiving benefits too? Their payments have been frozen until 2020.

Many of today's pensioners think of it as an entitlement, as if they have never had anything from the state until the day they retire. When most will take out far more than they ever paid in. Especially if they had children. Wouldn't it be great if we could all retire with state help for 30 years. Someone has to pay for it. Most people are really really stupid and don't understand it yet.

My great aunt managed 50 years from 1964-2004, they used to have something called a widow's pension before you even got to 60. I guess there used to be a gamut of goodies.  That will change as the canter to 67 becomes a gallup to 75, infinity and beyond. Somebody has to pay to keep today's pensioners in the manner they have become accustomed.

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16 minutes ago, stuckin2up2down said:

SP is a benefit. Do you not include people with disabilities as receiving benefits too? Their payments have been frozen until 2020.

Many of today's pensioners think of it as an entitlement, as if they have never had anything from the state until the day they retire. When most will take out far more than they ever paid in. Especially if they had children. Wouldn't it be great if we could all retire with state help for 30 years. Someone has to pay for it. Most people are really really stupid and don't understand it yet.

The pension service told me, on the telephone, that the basic state pension and any accrued SERPS/Second pension are an entitlement.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11194265/State-pension-is-not-a-benefit-says-minister.html

Edited by Bruce Banner

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38 minutes ago, crouch said:

 

My point about bus passes was not about the economics but the fact that eliminating them would not yield much for the care budget. Personally I agree; I don't see why there should be free bus passes.

Bus passes help keep the buses running in many places, only elderly and school children seem to use them, no bus pass no bus service.....there are elderly often living alone that the bus is the only way they can get out to do their shopping, visit friends, be part of the community......the rich retired rarely use the bus pass they are given they do not need to they get a cab......door to door drop off. ;)

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The pension service told me, on the telephone, that the basic state pension and any accrued SERPS/Second pension are an entitlement.

Its is.

The bus pass, pension credit, free TV license, and care allowance are discretionary.

The age you get the state pension is discretionary too.

The SP should have started being raised when life expectancies started to rise - in the early 80s.

If hey been raising the pension age by 1 year, every 5 years, we'd not be in this mess.

Also they should have enforced no NI contribs/no enhanced pension.

If someone does not work for 40 years then  they need to spend their retirement living in a cold. damp sh1thole.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, winkie said:

Bus passes help keep the buses running in many places, only elderly and school children seem to use them, no bus pass no bus service.....there are elderly often living alone that the bus is the only way they can get out to do their shopping, visit friends, be part of the community......the rich retired rarely use the bus pass they are given they do not need to they get a cab......door to door drop off. ;)

No they dont.

Where Im from, the free bus pass destroyed the bus services.

All the council money transport sub money gets spent on joyriding pensioers from Leed travelling to the coast.

The early and late bus services, put on the help people working odd hours have been withdrawn to pay for joy riding pensioners from Leeds.

Another of that cretin Brown's great ideas. Basically giving something and expecting someone else to pay for it.

 

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3 minutes ago, winkie said:

Bus passes help keep the buses running in many places, only elderly and school children seem to use them, no bus pass no bus service.....there are elderly often living alone that the bus is the only way they can get out to do their shopping, visit friends, be part of the community......the rich retired rarely use the bus pass they are given they do not need to they get a cab......door to door drop off. ;)

Quite a few millionaire pensioners use them in the Peak District, you need to be a millionaire to live in some of the villages. True no bus pass, no service; nobody else uses them other than pensioners because no one else can afford to.

I do think that actually the bus pass hits the fare payer. If 85% of your passnegers have passes you can charge the rest what youi like.

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2 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

Quite a few millionaire pensioners use them in the Peak District, you need to be a millionaire to live in some of the villages. True no bus pass, no service; nobody else uses them other than pensioners because no one else can afford to.

I do think that actually the bus pass hits the fare payer. If 85% of your passnegers have passes you can charge the rest what youi like.

My wife and I both have bus passes. I have never used mine and probably never will as I hate busses. My wife, however uses hers every day, because she can, and travels everywhere on nearly empty busses, she estimates that less than 10% hand over money.

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30 minutes ago, stuckin2up2down said:

SP is a benefit. Do you not include people with disabilities as receiving benefits too? Their payments have been frozen until 2020.

Many of today's pensioners think of it as an entitlement, as if they have never had anything from the state until the day they retire. When most will take out far more than they ever paid in. Especially if they had children. Wouldn't it be great if we could all retire with state help for 30 years. Someone has to pay for it. Most people are really really stupid and don't understand it yet.

Steve Webb (Pensions Minister) said that the SP is not a benefit :http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11194265/State-pension-is-not-a-benefit-says-minister.html

Now I think you are right that most do not understand it but that is not because they are stupid; it's what they've been told. Someone does indeed have to pay for it but these things are set by the government and you can hardly blame folk if these somewhat awkward facts are not spelled out to them. Governments have had time to plan for demographics but haven't; whose fault is that?

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7 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

Quite a few millionaire pensioners use them in the Peak District, you need to be a millionaire to live in some of the villages. True no bus pass, no service; nobody else uses them other than pensioners because no one else can afford to.

I do think that actually the bus pass hits the fare payer. If 85% of your passnegers have passes you can charge the rest what youi like.

I have used buses and found them to be expensive, did notice on this particular bus almost everyone outside rush hour used a bus pass....but talking to some elderly people waiting for the bus is that they very much rely on the service for transport, they donot drive and there are no trains.....the service is their lifeline, helps keep them moving, independent and healthy....not every pensioner has a bus to take them to the seaside, not every pensioner has multiple pensions index-linked, very many live very frugally...... although you also get the ones that have more money a month credited to their bank account than they can reasonably spend...... inequality comes in all ages and areas. ;)

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Just now, winkie said:

I have used buses and found them to be expensive, did notice on this particular bus almost everyone outside rush hour used a bus pass....but talking to some elderly people waiting for the bus is that they very much rely on the service for transport, they donot drive and there are no trains.....the service is their lifeline, helps keep them moving, independent and healthy....not every pensioner has a bus to take them to the seaside, not every pensioner has multiple pensions index-linked, very many live very frugally...... although you also get the ones that have more money a month credited to their bank account than they can reasonably spend...... inequality comes in all ages and areas. ;)

Most bus companies have switched to a fare model where regular users buy week, month or 3 month all-you-can-eat-tickets.

Its works out good if you are using buses daily. A mate does a ~15mile commute on a bus. His season pass works out cheaper than petrol. And he can use local services. Most bus companies use a ITSO card system now.

Ditto for for a day pass - you can get a family pass for  ~£10, which lets 2 adults, 2 kids travel a huge distance.

Short (less than 5 mile) is expensive, almost taxi levels.

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3 minutes ago, crouch said:

 Governments have had time to plan for demographics but haven't; whose fault is that?

The electorate, Government's do their bidding. Everybody wants to have jam today. And it is doable for so long by can kicking. Also if you are elderly then the can kicking makes sense, you will not be around when the day of reckoning arrives.

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3 minutes ago, winkie said:

I have used buses and found them to be expensive, did notice on this particular bus almost everyone outside rush hour used a bus pass....but talking to some elderly people waiting for the bus is that they very much rely on the service for transport, they donot drive and there are no trains.....the service is their lifeline, helps keep them moving, independent and healthy....not every pensioner has a bus to take them to the seaside, not every pensioner has multiple pensions index-linked, very many live very frugally...... although you also get the ones that have more money a month credited to their bank account than they can reasonably spend...... inequality comes in all ages and areas. ;)

Im fine with pensioners having a subbed, local service, say within a town or ~20 mile region.

I d have a problem where they drive from over 50 miles away, shove their car in a park and ride and then use bus.

Maybe th pass needs a strict local limit and a trip/week limit say of 4?

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4 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

The electorate, Government's do their bidding. Everybody wants to have jam today. And it is doable for so long by can kicking. Also if you are elderly then the can kicking makes sense, you will not be around when the day of reckoning arrives.

We live in a Parliamentary democracy; we delegate these decisions to the government and it is the duty of the government to explain these decisions. The electorate may want can kicking and of course folk do indeed want jam today but if governments had spelled these things out over time they would be accepted - as are most things that governments do.

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13 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

The electorate, Government's do their bidding. Everybody wants to have jam today. And it is doable for so long by can kicking. Also if you are elderly then the can kicking makes sense, you will not be around when the day of reckoning arrives.

That doesn't make it any less annoying to those of us who spent our working lives making sure that we would have jam tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, crouch said:

We live in a Parliamentary democracy; we delegate these decisions to the government and it is the duty of the government to explain these decisions. The electorate may want can kicking and of course folk do indeed want jam today but if governments had spelled these things out over time they would be accepted - as are most things that governments do.

MPs are part of the conspiracy and they too will be looking towards their own retirements. They can also divert the blame onto the Banks, everybody knows the banks caused the bust, they will forever take the blame. So they get away with mortgaging our futures to pay for the health and retirement Ponzi. Previously borrowing reserved for Napoleon and Hitler only in UK history.

Edited by crashmonitor

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6 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

MPs are part of the conspiracy and they too will be looking towards their own retirements. They can also divert the blame onto the Banks, everybody knows the banks caused the bust, they will forever take the blame. So they get away with mortgaging our futures to pay for the health and retirement Ponzi. Previously borrowing reserved for Napoleon and Hitler only in UK history.

Well, as we are now into conspiracies then I suppose anything is possible.

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