Fidel Castro Dies

[juvenal]

44 minutes ago, spyguy said:

And colder rain.

At least you can get a good cigar...

[libspero]

3 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Cuba was good for sugar cane and tobaccie.

Durable goods? Less so.

If a country ever needed to embrace the free market and trade then Cuba was it.

To be fair to Cuba,  I don't think they have ever been against free trade.  That was somewhat imposed on them by the US.

[spyguy]

1 minute ago, libspero said:

To be fair to Cuba,  I don't think they have ever been against free trade.  That was somewhat imposed on them by the US.

No, they were.

They are close enough to countries other than the US. They could have made a go of it. They didn't, mainly as, apart from Rum, Fags + Drs, they had nothing to trade. Again, the economy has been stuck where it was in the 50s - fags + rums.

[libspero]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

No, they were.

They are close enough to countries other than the US. They could have made a go of it. They didn't, mainly as, apart from Rum, Fags + Drs, they had nothing to trade. Again, the economy has been stuck where it was in the 50s - fags + rums.

Surely the whole point of the US embargo was to cripple and isolate Cuba to stop it being a threat?

Other than a few tinpot countries I doubt many would have stood up to the US political pressure not to trade with them.

I expect the US would have considered supplying Cuba with infrastructure and high tech goods tantamount to an act of war. 

[Scunnered]

2 hours ago, Orsino said:

Back in the 1950s educated young people like Castro believed they could achieve anything, and that drove them to achieve remarkable things. He was a visionary who made his dream a reality and how many people can say that? Courage, daring, leadership, endurance and a single-minded focus. Regardless of whether you agree with his vision, he was someone to be admired. I can't think of a single 21st Century figure that comes close.

Tony Blair!

 

[spyguy]

9 minutes ago, libspero said:

Surely the whole point of the US embargo was to cripple and isolate Cuba to stop it being a threat?

Other than a few tinpot countries I doubt many would have stood up to the US political pressure not to trade with them.

I expect the US would have considered supplying Cuba with infrastructure and high tech goods tantamount to an act of war. 

No. There's always been enoguh LAtin + South American countries willing to trade with Cuba. They didnt as Cuba does not have any hard currency to trade.

Cuba like a wierd  social version of New Zealand. Its developed a high performing, non mainstream medical system. Built on Soviet money.

Educationwise, Cubas pretty impressive too.

Just economically its useless. Its capital and economic stock is stuck in the last time money was invested.

Compared to the Narco states and Haiti, Cuba does not do too bad, considering.

There are some pretty limiting things in Cuba but basic goods, healthcare and education are good.

 

[sleepwello'nights]

I spent a few weeks in Cuba in 2013. The first couple of weeks we toured the island. The guide and driver, both pleasant people who seemed to get on with each other, seemed quite guarded in expressing their political opinions when in each others company. They were quite open with us when they were not together. Unsurprisingly both gave the same guarded criticism of the political state of the country, both were more critical of the economy but that was openly blamed on the US embargo.

Both the driver and guide had graduated from university and obtained post graduate PhDs. One in maths the other physics. Education in Cuba is free, once you've qualified you have to work for the state for a few years to repay your education and then you're free to work for the state as there are (or were) few other employers. Also healthcare is free. What struck me was that most agricultural equipment we saw was pulled by oxen. The soviet tractors were few and far between, the road infrastructure was poorly maintained until you came close to tourist centres. Then the roads were well surfaced.  

At the resort one of the employees at the hotel spoke to us about her brother. He was a doctor and in return for working in Venezuela, I think she said, he was given allowed to live in a state owned apartment. After a second trip he was given a car, probably a Moskovich. His wage was something like $20 a month. From what I saw most people were well nourished and reasonably content with their existence. I didn't see much evidence of secret police or that type of official although our guide wouldn't let us take photographs when we drove through an area of Havana that he said was where high ranking officials lived. The houses there were mostly behind high walls with gated entrances.

Of course the prevailing ethnicity of Cuba is Spanish, there is definite colour prejudice with those of negro ethnicity looked down on .  

[richc]

2 hours ago, Orsino said:

Back in the 1950s educated young people like Castro believed they could achieve anything, and that drove them to achieve remarkable things. He was a visionary who made his dream a reality and how many people can say that? Courage, daring, leadership, endurance and a single-minded focus. Regardless of whether you agree with his vision, he was someone to be admired. I can't think of a single 21st Century figure that comes close.

Anders Brevik?

Your statement is really quite disturbing. Most people in the 21st century have learned that egomaniacal totalitarians are best avoided.  I guess not everyone has learned this, though.

 

[The Masked Tulip]

The US put pressure on other countries not to trade with Cuba.

[Frank Hovis]

9 minutes ago, richc said:

Anders Brevik?

Your statement is really quite disturbing. Most people in the 21st century have learned that egomaniacal totalitarians are best avoided.  I guess not everyone has learned this, though.

 

Quite!

Just because somebody was a successful nutcase like Castro does not make them any less of a nutcase.

I don't admire mass murderers because they have been so much more ambitious and successful in their aims than people who commit a solitary murder.

[libspero]

42 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No. There's always been enoguh LAtin + South American countries willing to trade with Cuba. They didnt as Cuba does not have any hard currency to trade.

I'm still pretty sceptical TBH but I'm not really familiar enough to debate you on it.   I guess a lot of politics happens behind closed doors anyway.  I guess the proof will be when the US finally lifts the embargo (less likely now with Trump) whether Cuba flourishes or remains a failed(ish) state.  I suspect it will miraculously improve but let's wait and see.

[libspero]

22 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Just because somebody was a successful nutcase like Castro does not make them any less of a nutcase.

I think the reason he is well regarded despite being an effective dictator is because he hasn't mass murdered his population and has generally been fairly true to his communist/socialist principles..  he has tried to do the best for his people rather than milking them for his own life style.   Compare and contrast with Sadam, Kim etc.

[spyguy]

11 minutes ago, libspero said:

I think the reason he is well regarded despite being an effective dictator is because he hasn't mass murdered his population and has generally been fairly true to his communist/socialist principles..  he has tried to do the best for his people rather than milking them for his own life style.   Compare and contrast with Sadam, Kim etc.

I think, broadly, most of the Cuban population are not that anti Castro.

They whinge and moan, but not as much as the Cubans in Miami.

Castro has locked up a number of poltical prsiners over the years. But not that many, and no mass murder.

And Cuba did share out the limited earnings reasonably well. There was not huge gap between the party and the people like in bits of Russia.

Where Cuba failed is lack of growth/development from basically a slave agri population.

Unlike all other Socialist/communist economies, the average Cuban is better educated and in better shape than when Castro took over.

[whitevanman]

1 hour ago, libspero said:

I think the reason he is well regarded despite being an effective dictator is because he hasn't mass murdered his population and has generally been fairly true to his communist/socialist principles..  he has tried to do the best for his people rather than milking them for his own life style.   Compare and contrast with Sadam, Kim etc.

There was plenty of murder during the revolution and throughout the early days. Lots of firing squads, extrajudicial killings and 'disappeared'. It wasn't on the scale of Stalin's purges but nonetheless unpleasant if you were on the receiving end. Castro's mate Ché was especially keen on personally carrying out executions. Never understood why people worship these monsters.

[MrPin]

2 minutes ago, whitevanman said:

There was plenty of murder during the revolution and throughout the early days. Lots of firing squads, extrajudicial killings and 'disappeared'. It wasn't on the scale of Stalin's purges but nonetheless unpleasant if you were on the receiving end. Castro's mate Ché was especially keen on personally carrying out executions. Never understood why people worship these monsters.

They just had the poster on their student wall.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Good riddance, he was a thoroughly nasty murderous thug - hope he rots in hell.

[MSE refugee]

15 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said:

Good riddance, he was a thoroughly nasty murderous thug - hope he rots in hell.

I agree 100%.

Many people think he was some kindly benevolent dictator that loved his people.

He was thoroughly self centred and a nasty piece of work who nearly caused a nuclear war.

[SpewLabour]

7 hours ago, Montecristo said:

Say what you want about Castro, but there is no one sleeping rough in Cuba tonight.

Anyone who disagreed with him are sleeping permanently.

The BBC gave him a better eulogy than they did Thatcher. Corbyn called him a champion of social justice. Trump called him a brutal dictator.

Another plus to Trump.

 

 

[libspero]

1 hour ago, whitevanman said:

There was plenty of murder during the revolution and throughout the early days. Lots of firing squads, extrajudicial killings and 'disappeared'. It wasn't on the scale of Stalin's purges but nonetheless unpleasant if you were on the receiving end. Castro's mate Ché was especially keen on personally carrying out executions. Never understood why people worship these monsters.

Wasn't that because the previous dictator Batista was as bad / worse?  I presume he was killing off the previous "bad guys"?

Certainly after the dust settled, and during my lifetime,  I thought everything had been relatively liberal / peaceful there?

[libspero]

Is some of his "monster" image down to him being a potential Cold War adversary and thus the media propaganda machine went out of their way to portray him in a worse light than might have been fair?  

My wife has a Cuban friend,  I might have to ask her.  I seem to remember that she didn't seem to hate him or the country.  Not many of our politicians remain that popular for that long!

[MSE refugee]

7 minutes ago, libspero said:

Is some of his "monster" image down to him being a potential Cold War adversary and thus the media propaganda machine went out of their way to portray him in a worse light than might have been fair?  

My wife has a Cuban friend,  I might have to ask her.  I seem to remember that she didn't seem to hate him or the country.  Not many of our politicians remain that popular for that long!

Maybe his image was tarnished somewhat by his use of firing squads after a show trial or no trial at all if you weren't very important.

[SpectrumFX]

6 hours ago, Orsino said:

Back in the 1950s educated young people like Castro believed they could achieve anything, and that drove them to achieve remarkable things. He was a visionary who made his dream a reality and how many people can say that? Courage, daring, leadership, endurance and a single-minded focus. Regardless of whether you agree with his vision, he was someone to be admired. I can't think of a single 21st Century figure that comes close.

Gordon Brown

[spyguy]

7 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

Gordon Brown

Castro was liked by a few people.

[SpewLabour]

6 hours ago, Orsino said:

Back in the 1950s educated young people like Castro believed they could achieve anything, and that drove them to achieve remarkable things. He was a visionary who made his dream a reality and how many people can say that? Courage, daring, leadership, endurance and a single-minded focus. Regardless of whether you agree with his vision, he was someone to be admired. I can't think of a single 21st Century figure that comes close.

So by that same argument they should have admired Hitler.

[Scunnered]

2 hours ago, MSE refugee said:

I agree 100%.

Many people think he was some kindly benevolent dictator that loved his people.

He was thoroughly self centred and a nasty piece of work who nearly caused a nuclear war.

It's impressive that someone with absolutely no access to nuclear weapons could be the cause of a nuclear war. You might think the possessors of the weapons would be more blameworthy.