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spyguy

NHS, EU + Id

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Jesus.

Today starts with a report onthe radio on the 'misbalance between how much the NHS claims back form EU health systems., and how much EU claim from the NHS.

I cannot find a quote for UK b. Poland which they mentioned-  vague memoirs of the the UK claiming back about a tenth of the sum that Poland claimed back from the UK. Now, considering that the the number of UK nationals in Poland must be pretty small and the UK has ~2M poles in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38060432

'But the committee heard that according to official figures released earlier this year, in 2014-15 £674 million was charged to the UK government for the care of British citizens abroad, but the amount charged for the care of EEA nationals in British hospitals was only £49m.'

I mean, FFS, does nayone in the NHS care about p1ssing money away?

'He added: "There are individual trusts like Peterborough who are doing that, who are reporting that it makes a big difference and there you are saying 'Please come with two forms of identity, your passport and your address' and they use that to check whether people are eligible or not.'

I wonder if there are many Brits left using the NHS in Peterboroski these days.

 

 

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Most of the EU nationals in the UK are healthy young workers in their 20s and 30s. Most of the Brits on the Costas are pensioners.

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100% guaranteed if / when privatised those not entitled or have no health/ travel insurance would have to hand the credit card over.....nobody travelling to other parts of the world could just walk in and be treated free without showing appropriate papers.... international health service....word gets around, if free it is free for all to use? ;)

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There's a dead easy way to sort this.

The overall proportion of any treatment not provided to a valid recipient is to be deducted from the revenue of the NHS trust and the salary of all if its staff and directors. Sorted.

If an insurance company paid claims to people who weren't insured then staff would be sacked.

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44 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Most of the EU nationals in the UK are healthy young workers in their 20s and 30s. Most of the Brits on the Costas are pensioners.

Can only go on my experience but here at work more than half of the people here are from the EU. All in their 20's/30's all having kids and accessing the NHS regularly for all manner of issues. I'm not suggesting you are wrong, but just because they are young doesn't mean they are not accessing the services massively. 

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Britain is "nice"ing itself to death.  Come one, come all - we'll look after you.  Here, have some tax credits.  Have some free health care.  Need some housing? Have some housing benefits.  We get the odd racist idiot who dares criticise our niceness. Don't worry, we're nice - and we live on the never never.  Don't worry about the cost - we just do this thing called borrowing - pile it onto the national debt innit. 

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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Jesus.

Today starts with a report onthe radio on the 'misbalance between how much the NHS claims back form EU health systems., and how much EU claim from the NHS.

I cannot find a quote for UK b. Poland which they mentioned-  vague memoirs of the the UK claiming back about a tenth of the sum that Poland claimed back from the UK. Now, considering that the the number of UK nationals in Poland must be pretty small and the UK has ~2M poles in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38060432

'But the committee heard that according to official figures released earlier this year, in 2014-15 £674 million was charged to the UK government for the care of British citizens abroad, but the amount charged for the care of EEA nationals in British hospitals was only £49m.'

I mean, FFS, does nayone in the NHS care about p1ssing money away?

'He added: "There are individual trusts like Peterborough who are doing that, who are reporting that it makes a big difference and there you are saying 'Please come with two forms of identity, your passport and your address' and they use that to check whether people are eligible or not.'

I wonder if there are many Brits left using the NHS in Peterboroski these days.

 

 

Part of the article goes on about the burdens of providing proof... if you did require proof of ID for using the NHS (well, for non-emergency services) then everyone would know what to do to get such a proof of ID.  It would just be another minor burden provided by the state for us.

The funny thing is, though, the one section of the UK who would definitely have such an ID would be foreign nationals, as they have to have proof of ID to be in the UK, either a foreign passport, or a residence permit.

1 hour ago, Dorkins said:

Most of the EU nationals in the UK are healthy young workers in their 20s and 30s. Most of the Brits on the Costas are pensioners.

Most people have three major interactions with health services....

  • When born / when they're very young
  • When they give birth (mainly for females, that one)
  • when they get old.

Now, I appreciate that the UK currently spends loads of money/time on the elderly, but this is to do with the demographics of the UK just as much as anything else -- we spent loads on the birth/young side of things when the baby boomers were being born.

But if the current foreign nationals in the UK are in their 20/30's then they will be using up NHS services on the births side of things.

 

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11 minutes ago, dgul said:

Part of the article goes on about the burdens of providing proof... if you did require proof of ID for using the NHS (well, for non-emergency services) then everyone would know what to do to get such a proof of ID.  It would just be another minor burden provided by the state for us.

The funny thing is, though, the one section of the UK who would definitely have such an ID would be foreign nationals, as they have to have proof of ID to be in the UK, either a foreign passport, or a residence permit.

Most people have three major interactions with health services....

  • When born / when they're very young
  • When they give birth (mainly for females, that one)
  • when they get old.

Now, I appreciate that the UK currently spends loads of money/time on the elderly, but this is to do with the demographics of the UK just as much as anything else -- we spent loads on the birth/young side of things when the baby boomers were being born.

But if the current foreign nationals in the UK are in their 20/30's then they will be using up NHS services on the births side of things.

 

That.

EUers cost a fortune on tax credits, cost of child birth and cost of schooling.

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8 minutes ago, dgul said:

 

The funny thing is, though, the one section of the UK who would definitely have such an ID would be foreign nationals, as they have to have proof of ID to be in the UK, either a foreign passport, or a residence permit.

 

 

What about those that are here illegally?  By definition we don't have the figures, but migration watch think it is about 1.1 million. Anecdotally, a restaurant in a very small town on the Yorkshire coast keeps getting raided and there is always a handful.  If it has spread that far, then the numbers are massive.  These will need the health service at some point, which is probably why whenever I visit a&he, there are masses of people floating around who don't look like either an accident or an emergency.  

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Every time I move I have to provide proof of eligibility (NHS card, NI number, proof of address, and confirmation I've been living in the UK for the previous six months) to register for a new doctor. I don't see the problem extending such checks to non-emergency hospital visits except perhaps A&E will get clogged up with non-nationals with non-emergency issues.

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1 minute ago, RentingForever said:

Every time I move I have to provide proof of eligibility (NHS card, NI number, proof of address, and confirmation I've been living in the UK for the previous six months) to register for a new doctor. I don't see the problem extending such checks to non-emergency hospital visits except perhaps A&E will get clogged up with non-nationals with non-emergency issues.

A&e is already clogged up.  Massively

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4 minutes ago, One-percent said:

What about those that are here illegally?  By definition we don't have the figures, but migration watch think it is about 1.1 million. Anecdotally, a restaurant in a very small town on the Yorkshire coast keeps getting raided and there is always a handful.  If it has spread that far, then the numbers are massive.  These will need the health service at some point, which is probably why whenever I visit a&he, there are masses of people floating around who don't look like either an accident or an emergency.  

Not saying I have the answer but there are many like that, there are many forged passports and stamps in passports and other documents or no documents...to open a bank account all manner if ID and address verification is required to protect for fraud and money laundering......why even the notes in our pockets are often checked for counterfeit in many shops....;)

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Having taken my wife to the Eye clinic in Reading a few times, I usually leave feeling that UK nationals being treated are in the minority.

Yes there are a few EU migrants benefiting, but there are also loads of non-EU nationals from Africa and Asia. While I suppose some of them may technically be asylum seekers, I suspect the real numbers in this category are low. The majority are in fact elderly and can't speak English. As successive Governments have given  the IT employers in the T. Valley tax breaks for replacing their UK workers with foreign ones, it seems likely that these foreign workers are now bringing over their parents, grandparents and distant cousins for free NHS treatment. 

The argument that the issue is small scale is nonsense. 12% of the population is now foreign born. Each migrant only has to invite a relative in need over once in a while to put a huge additional burden on the service we pay for. It is time for NHS ID cards, no card no access to the service (to avoid the Govt. giving billions to a foreign IT firm, they should be piggy backed on our passports and/or driving licenses).

What's more, if we cut our the real burden of all these foreign nationals, EU or otherwise, we might suddenly find we didn't need to bring in so many foreign nurses and doctors after all.

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So what happens to UK nationals who don't have a current passport (eg. their old one expired and they never got a new one) or other photo ID?

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3 minutes ago, Errol said:

So what happens to UK nationals who don't have a current passport (eg. their old one expired and they never got a new one) or other photo ID?

They must have a local GP? ;)

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10 minutes ago, Errol said:

So what happens to UK nationals who don't have a current passport (eg. their old one expired and they never got a new one) or other photo ID?

Well if the expired passport has not been cancelled it shows that the holder has not left the UK since it expired, so pretty much proof of residence.

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9 minutes ago, Errol said:

So what happens to UK nationals who don't have a current passport (eg. their old one expired and they never got a new one) or other photo ID?

Unfortunately, they'd have to get one. A NHS ID card could perhaps be based on the plastic Driving License; but I think we needn't worry too much about the costs of implementation and who pays what. I think most UK Tax Payers would agree its cost worth paying. I wasn't keen on ID cards under Blair; but I think his legacy of open borders means that we now have no choice.

 

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32 minutes ago, Errol said:

So what happens to UK nationals who don't have a current passport (eg. their old one expired and they never got a new one) or other photo ID?

They get one.  Or is that not acceptable to the tin foil hat tendency?

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14 minutes ago, Unbowed said:

I wasn't keen on ID cards under Blair; but I think his legacy of open borders means that we now have no choice.

If they'd sold the idea as being for this originally there probably wouldn't have been so many objections.  (Well, and if they weren't completely illiberal war-mongers.)

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This subject never gets old.

Below is a copy of the letter I've sent various MPs as I've moved around the country.  One (labour) fobbed me off, two (one labour, one conservative) forwarded it to the relevant ministries who never replied:

Quote

Dear ...

I am a  hospital doctor working in the National Health Service.  I read with interest the guidance recently published by the Department of Health regarding the costs of overseas visitor and migrant use of the NHS in England.  I would like to offer a suggestion with regard to the issue of migrants and undeclared overseas visitors who fraudulently claim to be 'ordinarily resident' in the UK and thus entitled to free NHS treatment when in fact this is not the case.

My suggestion is to align the NHS's 'ordinarily resident' test with HM Revenue & Customs' Statutory Resident Test (1), deprecate the use of NHS numbers as unique patient identifiers and replace them with National Insurance numbers as unique patient identifiers.  When an individual seeks NHS treatment an automated electronic enquiry could be sent to HMRC via the Government Secure Intranet to establish whether that individual is considered resident in the UK by HMRC and thus whether they are entitled to free NHS treatment.

My suggestion does not apply to migrants and declared overseas visitors who do not claim to be 'ordinarily resident' in the UK, nor does it apply to those aspects of NHS treatment which are always free, such as emergency treatment, treatment for most infectious diseases to limit the spread of those diseases etc.

It would still be possible to defraud this system (by using another person's NI number and identity for example) but it would pose considerably more obstacles to fraud than the current system.

There may be a very small number of permanent migrants to the UK who do not have NI numbers (such as dependents of another person who do not pay tax or claim benefits) and it may be that new immigrants to the UK should be advised to apply for an NI number as soon as possible.  For any permanent migrant that does not have an NI number emergency treatment would remain free, as always.  Any permanent migrant without an NI number requiring non-emergency treatment should have ample time to obtain an NI number before being charged.

Children would be treated in the same manner as adults.  Children have NI numbers which are created when their birth is registered but at present the Department of Work and Pensions does not routinely issue them until 15 years and 9 months of age.  However there is no reason why their NI numbers cannot be issued earlier if there is a use for them.

I believe my suggestion would be simple and inexpensive to implement, with no untoward patient safety or civil liberties implications.

I wrote to the Department of Health but received only a boilerplate reply from the Ministerial Correspondence and Public Enquiries Unit, whereas I was hoping for at least an acknowledgement that my suggestion would be considered.

Yours sincerely

...

(1) https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence

 

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Yep using NI numbers seem sensible enough. And would reduce the fraud considerably.

I cant see why they in turn cant be linked to the photo records held for passports and driving licenses, but then I work in IT. Why the managing and political classes have to block such simple things is a mystery.

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3 minutes ago, Unbowed said:

Yep using NI numbers seem sensible enough. And would reduce the fraud considerably.

I cant see why they in turn cant be linked to the photo records held for passports and driving licenses, but then I work in IT. Why the managing and political classes have to block such simple things is a mystery.

No good reason at all - the DWP, DVLA and passport systems are already linked up. When you're getting a new passport you can use your drivers license picture if it's recent enough (I assume it works the other way too) and they use passport data for identity checks when setting up a DWP online account.

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1 hour ago, Unbowed said:

Having taken my wife to the Eye clinic in Reading a few times, I usually leave feeling that UK nationals being treated are in the minority.

Yes there are a few EU migrants benefiting, but there are also loads of non-EU nationals from Africa and Asia. While I suppose some of them may technically be asylum seekers, I suspect the real numbers in this category are low. The majority are in fact elderly and can't speak English. As successive Governments have given  the IT employers in the T. Valley tax breaks for replacing their UK workers with foreign ones, it seems likely that these foreign workers are now bringing over their parents, grandparents and distant cousins for free NHS treatment. 

The argument that the issue is small scale is nonsense. 12% of the population is now foreign born. Each migrant only has to invite a relative in need over once in a while to put a huge additional burden on the service we pay for. It is time for NHS ID cards, no card no access to the service (to avoid the Govt. giving billions to a foreign IT firm, they should be piggy backed on our passports and/or driving licenses).

What's more, if we cut our the real burden of all these foreign nationals, EU or otherwise, we might suddenly find we didn't need to bring in so many foreign nurses and doctors after all.

All of this x1000.

My guess is the cost of a 'cheap' TCS or whatever IT outsourcer is about 20k on the UK tax payer.

The UKGOV and esp. the NHS is too fcking naive or willfully ignorrant on the level of fraud and how dodging/appealing the 'NHS - free at point of use' is to a lot of 3rd worlders.

Its cheap to fly India->Uk.

Its not treat to treat the diseases some turn turn up with, or their octopets.

 

 

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