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Frank Hovis

Cryonics - am I missing something?

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OK it's already well into the realm of pseudo science with no credible advocates, but this does seem to be particular snake oil for the simple reason that if the water in a cell freezes it expands, breaks the cell wall, and the cell dies as happens with frostbite.  So if a cure is developed later that means if they could have got to you at the instant of your death you would have lived it makes no difference because every cell in your body has been destroyed by being frozen.

Or are they claiming some magical water extraction process first like rolling you in salt?

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25 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No.

Bunch of loons.
Ever defrosted a soft fruit like a strawberry or raspberry?

 

That's why they claim they use a special anti-freeze to replace the water in the body. Obviously this won't have been tested for toxicity or efficacy, it's probably ethylene glycol.

LBC had one of the ladies from the US firm that does this, she kept referring to the frozen cadavers as patients. I'd say the term slush puppies is more appropriate.

What I also can't work out is if the girl died over here or in the US. Seems to be some transatlantic divorce involved, so possible they were in the US, but had a UK hearing. Anyway they slush factory lady claimed the chill and transport the body with just the right amount of oxygen being applied to keep the body functions ticking over prior to deep freezing. Did this involve an 8 hour flight?

The most astounding part was when at the end she claimed that the patients could be revived/woken up and would be up and alert within a few hours.

 

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1 minute ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

That's why they claim they use a special anti-freeze to replace the water in the body. Obviously this won't have been tested for toxicity or efficacy, it's probably ethylene glycol.

LBC had one of the ladies from the US firm that does this, she kept referring to the frozen cadavers as patients. I'd say the term slush puppies is more appropriate.

What I also can't work out is if the girl died over here or in the US. Seems to be some transatlantic divorce involved, so possible they were in the US, but had a UK hearing. Anyway they slush factory lady claimed the chill and transport the body with just the right amount of oxygen being applied to keep the body functions ticking over prior to deep freezing. Did this involve an 8 hour flight?

The most astounding part was when at the end she claimed that the patients could be revived/woken up and would be up and alert within a few hours.

 

No doubt she was unable to produce one of those freeze-dried, deep frozen "patients" to substantiate her claims...?

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Who knows what they'll be able to do in a thousand years time . How was medical science a thousand years ago ? Re all the cells being destroyed , don't the sperm and eggs survive the process these days ? 

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I thought the judges decision in the recent court case was rather refreshing.

Apparently he went to see the girl and decided that she was highly intelligent, knew exactly what she wanted and who was he to argue with that.

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1 minute ago, stormymonday_2011 said:

Defrost in a microwave presumably...

Leave out in the kitchen to defrost and hope the dog doesn't rag it off the counter and eat it.

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My guess is they will never be able to revive any of the people currently frozen.

Whether they can get cryogenics to work in the future is another thing but starting with small animals such as mice might be an idea. I believe there are some animals that can survive being deep frozen like frogs (they have special blood) but can human brains survive it and still retain memories etc? The christians are against it because they say you wouldn't have your soul as you were dead - and maybe they are not wrong in a certain way.

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12 minutes ago, davidg said:

My guess is they will never be able to revive any of the people currently frozen.

Whether they can get cryogenics to work in the future is another thing but starting with small animals such as mice might be an idea. I believe there are some animals that can survive being deep frozen like frogs (they have special blood) but can human brains survive it and still retain memories etc? The christians are against it because they say you wouldn't have your soul as you were dead - and maybe they are not wrong in a certain way.

I think memory retention is the least of your worries.

Which does raise antother, unrelated question, how are memories retained? Chemically? physically? electrically?

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Even if they get the cyrogenics part to work properly and are able to restore the body exactly how it was - the body was also dead at the point of being frozen, so in addition they need to bring that dead body back to life and then immediately cure whatever killed them before they die again.

For this to have any real chance of success they need to freeze the body while the patient is still alive and I don't see too many people signing up for that somehow.

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There was a very good episode of 'Star Trek Deep Space Nine' when one of the characters had a brain injury. The doctor managed to stabilise him briefly using brain implants.

But when he detriorated further his girlfriend asked the doctor to use more implants. At which point the doctor said that if he did that he would look and talk like the person he was but that the very essence of who he was would be gone.

Where is that essence in us? Where is, or what is, that divine spark that makes each of us who we are?

I was watching a programme this week with Prof Alice Roberts holding various brains in her hands. Looking at the brain makes one stop and think that everything that, um, we think and are is bound up in that single organ. Or is it? How can the brain be frozen, then defrosted and all our essence of who we are still be there?

Would - could - we come back? Would we still be there? Or would the entire process wipe the brain liked a hard drive is wiped?

It is all a moot point as surely there are so many things that could go wrong.

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I did wonder why this non-story was the major headline news on friday, i started thinking about what important world event the MSM were trying to destract us from? 

Or is it another "people are living longer / look you can live forever" keep working and forget about retiring propaganda?

I noticed the £37,000 price tag was mentioned alot.

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5 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

I did wonder why this non-story was the major headline news on friday, i started thinking about what important world event the MSM were trying to destract us from? 

Or is it another "people are living longer / look you can live forever" keep working and forget about retiring propaganda?

I noticed the £37,000 price tag was mentioned alot.

Teenage  girl aged 14, the Milly Dowler syndrome. How many teenage boys to get the same press coverage...100 ?

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If the memories cannot survive, why not go for the much cheaper option of preserving DNA. Cloning is viable with the technology we have now, if you discount the ethical barriers. 

Personally I think stem cell, and gene therapies are the elephants in the room. Vastly extended lifetimes may be just round the corner. Is our society ready for the social upheaval this will cause?

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4 minutes ago, prodigal sheeple said:

If the memories cannot survive, why not go for the much cheaper option of preserving DNA. Cloning is viable with the technology we have now, if you discount the ethical barriers. 

Personally I think stem cell, and gene therapies are the elephants in the room. Vastly extended lifetimes may be just round the corner. Is our society ready for the social upheaval this will cause?

People want to pay for themselves to live for forever - not some clone.

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http://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html

This guy did an interesting write up on it. He ended up supporting it.

Personally I can't imagine that the people of the future will have any interest in thawing anybody out. Other than as a carnival attraction.

I suppose they may need to reanimate a bunch of us because they've lost the ability to wage war, and need to fight off an alien invader :) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Mercenaries-Philip-High-ebook/dp/B005HRT8SG

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3 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

OK it's already well into the realm of pseudo science with no credible advocates, but this does seem to be particular snake oil for the simple reason that if the water in a cell freezes it expands, breaks the cell wall, and the cell dies as happens with frostbite.  So if a cure is developed later that means if they could have got to you at the instant of your death you would have lived it makes no difference because every cell in your body has been destroyed by being frozen.

Or are they claiming some magical water extraction process first like rolling you in salt?

I'm not sure how or why - but I get an advert for a swim outlet website below your post !!

And lord the burds in it. 

 

Anyway....

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Three points:  Science apart

Will these cryogenic purveyors keep the frozen cadavers ad infitum?  I doubt it!

The elite Egyptians opted for preservation via quite sophisticated techniques.  Look what happened to their remains so many thousand years down the road.

Will this case trigger 'entitlement' in a certain stratum of society?  If it is good enough for that child then I want it for my Chardonay!  Watch out for media and online appeals for funds to follow suit!

 

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2 minutes ago, Alba said:

Three points:  Science apart

Will these cryogenic purveyors keep the frozen cadavers ad infitum?  I doubt it!

The elite Egyptians opted for preservation via quite sophisticated techniques.  Look what happened to their remains so many thousand years down the road.

Will this case trigger 'entitlement' in a certain stratum of society?  If it is good enough for that child then I want it for my Chardonay!  Watch out for media and online appeals for funds to follow suit!

 

 

A lot of supposed baby and children embalmed by the Egyptians turned out to be bits of lamb.

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1 minute ago, Alba said:

Three points:  Science apart

Will these cryogenic purveyors keep the frozen cadavers ad infitum?  I doubt it!

The elite Egyptians opted for preservation via quite sophisticated techniques.  Look what happened to their remains so many thousand years down the road.

Will this case trigger 'entitlement' in a certain stratum of society?  If it is good enough for that child then I want it for my Chardonay!  Watch out for media and online appeals for funds to follow suit!

 

People could leave all their assets in trust until they're revived.

The dead renting out houses to the living, and all the money going into some fund that grows and grows for ever, until all the assets of the world are owned by the dead. With the living forced to pay all their productive effort over in tribute.

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4 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

People could leave all their assets in trust until they're revived.

The dead renting out houses to the living, and all the money going into some fund that grows and grows for ever, until all the assets of the world are owned by the dead. With the living forced to pay all their productive effort over in tribute.

Quote

Don't we have some semblance of that already?  Haven't the elite ensured that their DNA passes on along with their wealth?

 

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4 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

People could leave all their assets in trust until they're revived.

The dead renting out houses to the living, and all the money going into some fund that grows and grows for ever, until all the assets of the world are owned by the dead. With the living forced to pay all their productive effort over in tribute.

 

:lol:

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11 minutes ago, Alba said:

Three points:  Science apart

Will these cryogenic purveyors keep the frozen cadavers ad infitum?  I doubt it!

The elite Egyptians opted for preservation via quite sophisticated techniques.  Look what happened to their remains so many thousand years down the road.

Will this case trigger 'entitlement' in a certain stratum of society?  If it is good enough for that child then I want it for my Chardonay!  Watch out for media and online appeals for funds to follow suit!

 

Just got a feelling that perpetual trusts might be illegal. Presumably you pay for so many 100 years and then termination? Though  corporate bankruptcy or interference is more likely to occur before then.

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