The Fatal Decision to Weaponise the EU Referendum

[onlyme2]

1 minute ago, Blod said:

Relatives abroad tell me that no one has the courage any longer to defend the EU against criticism. In fact its considered impolite, bad form, or as he put it no one would have dared say positive things about the nazi during the last war and that how it is now with the EU. Their take of the British that are in favour of the EU is that they are either stupid or naive.  

Or both.

[Maynardgravy]

I don't think there has ever been a bigger disconnect between social media and the MSM. It's so large now that it's obvious... you may as well be on two different planets information-wise.

Furthermore the internet offers explanations whereby the MSM offers nothing: The real reasons for war in Syria and Libya, 9/11, the rise of ISIS, why does Israel get away scott free all the time, why all the immigration, the real reason for low IR, high house prices etc. etc....

You don't have to believe everything you read, but at least it's out there. WTF are the journos doing in the MSM? Nothing as far as I can tell except leak a few titbits after the event.

All out war is about to be declared on the internet. Trump was a mishap too far for the elites.

[South Lorne]

2 hours ago, Maynardgravy said:

I don't think there has ever been a bigger disconnect between social media and the MSM. It's so large now that it's obvious... you may as well be on two different planets information-wise.

Furthermore the internet offers explanations whereby the MSM offers nothing: The real reasons for war in Syria and Libya, 9/11, the rise of ISIS, why does Israel get away scott free all the time, why all the immigration, the real reason for low IR, high house prices etc. etc....

You don't have to believe everything you read, but at least it's out there. WTF are the journos doing in the MSM? Nothing as far as I can tell except leak a few titbits after the event.

All out war is about to be declared on the internet. Trump was a mishap too far for the elites.

The MSMs as you call them are relics of a past age ...on social media if you get it wrong you will be challenged ..and social media is challenging the BBC and SKY in this country, justifiabl,  when they get it wrong .....

Edited November 16, 2016 by South Lorne

[South Lorne]

2 hours ago, Blod said:

Relatives abroad tell me that no one has the courage any longer to defend the EU against criticism. In fact its considered impolite, bad form, or as he put it no one would have dared say positive things about the nazi during the last war and that how it is now with the EU. Their take of the British that are in favour of the EU is that they are either stupid or naive.  

...probably as basic as ignorant of the true facts.....

[Bear Hug]

This started so well but is clearly going now the way of all he other brexit threads.  Is there any chance of ever having the brexit discussion without any direct and indirect insults?

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

5 hours ago, zugzwang said:

I recall seeing 2022 quoted as the most likely leaving date in the early days. That would be consistent with what you're saying. I must admit to finding the Labour Party's pro-Article 50 conversion a little hard to swallow. Perhaps the Corbynistas know something we don't?

We can have another referendum by 2022, perhaps do it a bit early to fill in the time.

[the gardener]

4 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

We can have another referendum by 2022, perhaps do it a bit early to fill in the time.

No, the earliest date for the next referendum is 2060. That's the same amount of time after the earliest we will leave the EU (41 years) we had to wait for our referendum in which we voted Leave.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

Just now, the gardener said:

No, the earliest date for the next referendum is 2060. That's the same amount of time after the earliest we will leave the EU (41 years) we had to wait for our referendum in which we voted Leave.

That is definitely not the case. I am quite certain. We'd get a re-entry referendum before 2030 even if we managed to leave by 2022. Do bare in mind that all the angry 8-16 year olds will be able to vote by then, and people like Farage will probably all be dead.

 

[the gardener]

1 minute ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

That is definitely not the case. I am quite certain. We'd get a re-entry referendum before 2030 even if we managed to leave by 2022. Do bare in mind that all the angry 8-16 year olds will be able to vote by then, and people like Farage will probably all be dead.

 

8 year-olds grow up. They know nothing of the EU now. As they mature in a UK outside of the EU then they will accept that as the new norm.

Farage dying? The Leave vote had 17.4 million supporters. We are not one man.

I'm Farage! I'm Farage! I'm Farage!....I'm Farage and so is my wife!...

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

All this talk of 2022 is making me wonder if the Asian Dub Foundation knew something. Reading the lyrics you could read part of this as referring to Brits trying to escape back into Europe.

 

Keep bangin' on the wall
Keep bangin' on the wall
Of fortress europe!
2022 -a new european order
Robot guards patrolling the border
Cybernetic dogs are getting closer and closer
Armoured cars and immigration officers
A burning village in kosovo
You bombed it out now you're telling us go home
Machine guns strut on the cliffs of dover
Heads down people look out! we're going over
Burnin up! can we survive re-entry
Past the mines and the cybernetic sentries
Safe european homes built on wars
You don't like the effect don't produce the cause
The chip is in your head not on my shoulder
Total control just around the corner
Open up the floodgates time's nearly up
Keep banging on the wall of fortress europe
Keep banging
Keep banging on the wall of fortress europe
We got a right , know the situation
We're the children of globalisation
No borders only true connection
Light the fuse of the insurrection
This generation has no nation
Grass roots pressure the only solution
We're sitting tight
'cause assylum is a right
Put an end to this confusion
Dis is a 21st century exodus
Dis is a 21st century exodus
Burnin' up can we survive re-entry
Past the landmines and cybernetic sentries
Plane, train, car , ferry boat or bus
The future is bleeding coming back at us
The chip is in your head not on my shoulder
Total control around the corner
Open up the floodgates time's nearly up
Keep banging on the wall of fortress europe
Keep banging
Keep banging on the wall of fortress europe
Dis is a 21st century exodus
Dis is a 21st century exodus
They got a right - listen not to de scaremonger
Who doesn't run when they're feel the hunger
From where to what to when to here to there
People caught up in red tape nightmare
Break out of the detention centres
Cut the wires and tear up the vouchers
People get ready it's time to wake up
Tear down the walls of fortress europe

 

[XswampyX]

Where is this fortress Europe you speak of? 

You can walk from one end to the other ***** and ****** people as you go.

[canbuywontbuy]

7 hours ago, John The Pessimist said:

Big piece by BBC about 'fake' news articles (unauthorised) on facepalm & google. May have swung the US election etc. An opportunity to introduce vetting of posts methinks.

On that very same day (yesterday) the BBC smugly wrote about the fake news on Facebook, the BBC lead with a fake news story about how the Cabinet had no plans for Brexit.....which turned out to be an unsolicited sales pitch to the government.  Instant karma.

[Blod]

8 hours ago, South Lorne said:

The MSMs as you call them are relics of a past age ...on social media if you get it wrong you will be challenged ..and social media is challenging the BBC and SKY in this country, justifiabl,  when they get it wrong .....

Or as appears to have happened in America and here, truths are denied in group think in what effectively becomes an echo chamber. Many commentators in the US have pointed out that that is what has happened in poles bother there and here. Groups have reinforced their position and been the most visible in those poles whilst the victorious sides voters have shunned those areas and hence been under represented. I personally have seen that here, where people are wed to remain and refuse to accept the truth regarding the EU. Their go to response is denigration and insults, the power of their groupthink can't be challenged.

[cool_hand]

Nick Clegg should STFU

[Peter Hun]

6 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

On that very same day (yesterday) the BBC smugly wrote about the fake news on Facebook, the BBC lead with a fake news story about how the Cabinet had no plans for Brexit.....which turned out to be an unsolicited sales pitch to the government.  Instant karma.

You aren't claiming that they do have a plan.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Peter Hun

[waynezilla]

14 hours ago, knock out johnny said:

I agree and await proposed internet controls in an effort to 'regulate' harmful misinformation

The only thing that will truly scare me into thinking we are doomed is an attempt by the authorities to control the internet.

When the democratisation of information has been removed I take that as a clear sign that the Powers-That-Be have given up trying to sway us using persuasion or more subtle means. They are about to break out the sledgehammers and are about to start swinging.

If we won't do as they say when asked nicely, they will start to do it by force. 'Twas ever thus.

[london_thirtythree]

I think this is a really good post.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Leave or Remain, the Referendum was appallingly handled.

Cameron did the same job in Scotland in deliberately going for a polarising All-in/All-out choice (when Scotland and the SNP would likely have settled on Devo-max rather than full independence if it had been on the table at that point) and then repeated the same logic for the EU Referendum on the basis that the sensible British public would always avoid the Hard All-out choice.

On this basis, the referendum could only go one way as the choice was framed as such - and so there was no planning or preparation for the outcomes on the basis that only one outcome was intended by the referendum.

This was profoundly out of touch given the current revolt against the elites/establishment and against human nature. (I am giving you a choice but only really a choice to do as I say)

As in reality the entire question was framed around Cameron's need to manage the politics and not a genuine decision-point on Britain's future (or lack of!) in Europe - this probably fed into the piss-poor standard of the debate around the choice itself. (if we leave: free money for all!  Alternatively we are all doomed and likely to start world war 3..)

As such the referendum appears to have lead Britain into a complete mess with our politicians struggling to implement a choice that was never intended as an actual choice - which will in all likelihood lead to huge damage to people across the country. (and we look like a pack of muppets to much of the outside world)

Ultimately if the country wanted to leave the EU Union - then this could have been managed via a cold calm 5 year process of leaving and the rebalancing and changing of our economy as a result, not the current shambles that Cameron has left behind him in pursuit of short-term politics.

In my opinion that will be Cameron's legacy - it could be that Brexit has caught a popular wind for rejection of the establishment and status quo, and so potentially turn out to be how the world is moving; but the way that Cameron managed the referendum was pretty close to as bad as it could have been, and so probably a damning indictment on his legacy as PM.

So I'd agree with the original post, the referendum was 'weaponised' rather than a proper grown-up choice and much of our troubles now seems to stem from this.

[kzb]

16 hours ago, John The Pessimist said:

Big piece by BBC about 'fake' news articles (unauthorised) on facepalm & google. May have swung the US election etc. An opportunity to introduce vetting of posts methinks.

Sky News also had a piece about "Fake News" this week.

However one of the problems we DO have is people stuck in their own social media world, not interacting with or hearing anything from people with different outlooks to their own circle.

Children now spend more time online than watching TV for the first time this year.

[kzb]

 

Yes Minister Series One (from Wikiquote)

Episode Five: The Writing on the Wall (first broadcast 1980)

---

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?

Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.

Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.

Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.

---

 

The Trump presidency was of course predicted by The Simpsons (as it also predicted 9/11).

I have a friend who maintains that nothing is unplanned.  It's all pre-ordained years in advance, and we even get clues in popular media, years in advance.   Goebbels said it was a rather simple thing to control the voting of a population.

By that reasoning, this outcome was meant to happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tapori]

I need to go back and watch Yes Minister again.

Gold.

[the gardener]

Well it was said at the time that the reason the UK was the key supporter of expanding the EU was to weaken the German and French control of the EU.