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macfarlan

We were ruined by Thatcher, Blair, and Hayek.

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No.

You were ruined by the vast expansion of banks balance sheets that occurred in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

And the fckheaded response - or lack of it - to Chinas super charged mercantilism.

The Western economies were in good shape in the mid to late 90s.

 

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9 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No.

You were ruined by the vast expansion of banks balance sheets that occurred in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

And the fckheaded response - or lack of it - to Chinas super charged mercantilism.

The Western economies were in good shape in the mid to late 90s.

 

Planning controls, mass immigration and a dysfunctional welfare state (why give someone straight off a plane from Spain, luxury accommodation?), also helped

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2 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Planning controls, mass immigration and a dysfunctional welfare state (why give someone straight off a plane from Spain, luxury accommodation?), also helped

As did deregulation and offshoring of jobs.  Agree that the process began with fhatch (Reagan economics) and was continued by bliar. Then we got brown, followed by the posh boys to really feck it up.  

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Why does no one ever mention Eddie George? With unnecessarily low interest rates he was quizzed about the impact it was having on a runaway housing market, he stood there smugly grinning and replied "a little bit of house price inflation never hurt anyone". I knew at that moment the market was going to end up as the generation wrecking bubble...

Edited by wsn03

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3 minutes ago, wsn03 said:

Why does no one ever mention Eddie George? With unnecessarily low interest rates he was quizzed about the impact it was having on a runaway housing market, he stood there smugly grinning and replied "a little bit of house price inflation never hurt anyone". I knew at that moment the market was going to end up as the generation wrecking bubble...

Good point, lots of blame to be shared.

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17 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Planning controls, mass immigration and a dysfunctional welfare state (why give someone straight off a plane from Spain, luxury accommodation?), also helped

Oh there were loads of fck ups.

Most though come down to Brown and his vanity of being a fcking genius.

 

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The economy is great,it must be,over half the north east get sent free money every week/month by the government to watch TV and walk around B&M (or drive around on a mobility scooter if the nash are about).Better than working in huge dirty factories and down mines.We dont even need to build ships,the Chinese get them from Korea and ship us cargo loads of free stuff.Its a miracle economy if you ask me.Brown was a genious.

Edited by durhamborn

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We have not been ruined by anything - we are simply responding the pace of technological change.

Our free-wheeling anything goes economy that we built in the 80s has struggled as technology has allowed to take everything and put it on steroids - huge share/currency movements can be made in minutes, millions of transactions can be made by automated algorithms, we can now exchange information instantly and transfer goods/labour and services almost as quickly.

This has meant that what is going on in China or America has an almost direct bearing on our lives - which is difficult to get your head round.

Like any system that worked well initially, we have layered layers on top of layers and everything has got insanely interconnected and complex - hence, we feel out of control.  At one point we trusted the Technocrats to ensure the system worked for everyone, but corruption happened and we lost this trust, leaving us with a over complicated difficult to understand system we now feel is working against us instead of for us.

However this is us struggling to adapt as the environment changes around us - like any creature whose habitat changes.

Maybe we should work to change it back, maybe we rip it down, maybe we learn to trust our Technocrats again, who knows.. but blaming everything on one or two figures is a bit like the blame game in any project, it feels good but is ultimately counter productive to getting anything done.

I think Blair, Thatcher, Cameron and maybe even Trump want to do the best for their voters (or in some cases, everyone) and have tried to help control and manage this pace of change - but ultimately its a difficult job to manage, and there are some wins and some losses..  Heck, we all have to deal with automation next.

But the betrayal narrative is probably going too far, most of these people have spent years working long hours and suffered alot of personal and professional abuse for their efforts, I don't think they are inherently bad people.  

Maybe other people (maybe you or me!) would have done a better job, but maybe we would have done a much worse job..

(maybe one day, one of us will.. am sure Venger could set the cat amongst the pigeons)

Edited by london_thirtythree
Trump is Thump!

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1 hour ago, macfarlan said:

Lots of people blame Thatcher, others blame Blair.

Both are right, and should understand that both politicians were driven by the same ideology that has gotten us where we are today.

Neoliberalism. The story that lies behind Donald trumps triumph.

I always read articles by Moonbat because then I know the opposite is the truth. Hayek should be a hero on this board, as he set out the argument against credit and asset price bubbles, and gave the philosophical basis of sound money. All our problems have stemmed from Lawson's and Brown's credit binges.

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7 minutes ago, london_thirtythree said:

We have been ruined by anything - we are simply responding the pace of technological change.

Our free-wheeling anything goes economy that we built in the 80s has struggled as technology has allowed to take everything and put it on steroids - huge share/currency movements can be made in minutes, millions of transactions can be made by automated algorithms, we can now exchange information instantly and transfer goods/labour and services almost as quickly.

This has meant that what is going on in China or America has an almost direct bearing on our lives - which is difficult to get your head round.

Like any system that worked well initially, we have layered layers on top of layers and everything has got insanely interconnected and complex - hence, we feel out of control.  At one point we trusted the Technocrats to ensure the system worked for everyone, but corruption happened and we lost this trust, leaving us with a over complicated difficult to understand system we now feel is working against us instead of for us.

However this is us struggling to adapt as the environment changes around us - like any creature whose habitat changes.

Maybe we should work to change it back, maybe we rip it down, maybe we learn to trust our Technocrats again, who knows.. but blaming everything on one or two figures is a bit like the blame game in any project, it feels good but is ultimately counter productive to getting anything done.

I think Blair, Thatcher, Cameron and maybe even Trump want to do the best for their voters (or in some cases, everyone) and have tried to help control and manage this pace of change - but ultimately its a difficult job to manage, and there are some wins and some losses..  Heck, we all have to deal with automation next.

But the betrayal narrative is probably going too far, most of these people have spent years working long hours and suffered alot of personal and professional abuse for their efforts, I don't think they are inherently bad people.  

Maybe other people (maybe you or me!) would have done a better job, but maybe we would have done a much worst job..

(maybe one day, one of us will.. am sure Venger could set the cat amongst the pigeons)

Good post.

One could argue that neoliberalism itself was how capitalism adapted during it's 4th long wave, that one of the key charachteristics was of the atomisation of the labour markets, and that each individual named so far played their part.

Yes, blame is futile, but understanding the neoliberal experiment helps us to get a sense of how we got where we are, and what we might be able to do about it.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Oh there were loads of fck ups.

Most though come down to Brown and his vanity of being a fcking genius.

 

I can't disagree with that.  Things don't go this wrong without lots of mistakes.

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As usual with the Guardian there is a semantic confusion above and below the line on what neoliberalism is. What is it if it is not open markets, globalised supply chains, free movement of capital and labour? But there is a belief that there is an a la carte menu of policies to be chosen from. Furthermore, tell them that reversing globalisation will punish emerging markets with who knows what consequence and they glitch like windows 98.

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1 hour ago, wsn03 said:

Why does no one ever mention Eddie George? With unnecessarily low interest rates he was quizzed about the impact it was having on a runaway housing market, he stood there smugly grinning and replied "a little bit of house price inflation never hurt anyone". I knew at that moment the market was going to end up as the generation wrecking bubble...

 

Hi there!

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Monbiot is saying what I've been saying all along.

It's fine to have a problem with neoliberalism and globalisation. But voting for Brexit and leaving the Tories to implement it, or voting for a billionaire property developer who staffs his hotel and other projects with immigrants, is an act of supreme folly.

On the surface they may have enticing sound bites, but these are the same people who designed the system you are trying to escape from.

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2 hours ago, wsn03 said:

Why does no one ever mention Eddie George? With unnecessarily low interest rates he was quizzed about the impact it was having on a runaway housing market, he stood there smugly grinning and replied "a little bit of house price inflation never hurt anyone". I knew at that moment the market was going to end up as the generation wrecking bubble...

Don't forget the deliberate consumer spending boom!!

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1 hour ago, hotairmail said:

For the UK, it was the freeing up of capital controls under Thatcher allowing the banks (1979) and building societies (1986) to borrow cheaply on the international markets (thereby depressing savings rates) to pump into the housing market. It also meant that countries in surplus no longer needed to trade in balance - they could buy your companies, debt and land up, thereby keeping your currency high too - so the natural mechanism for bringing trade back into balance was removed.

If you want to blame someone in the UK, blame someone in the shadows....Keith Joseph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Joseph

 

It was the abject failure of Keynesianism to explain or meliorate the impact of stagflation on Western living standards in the mid 70s that gave the neoliberals their opportunity. The IEA whispered in Joseph's ear but the IEA in turn drew much of its inspiration from the Mount Pelerin Society, a loose association of right-leaning thinkers, American bankers and European aristocrats, which Hayek established in 1947, ostensibly as an intellectual bulwark against Communism.

But the Neoliberals were (and are) every bit as bad at science as the Keynesians before them. Their economic models make no more sense empirically or theoretically than the ones they replaced.

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54 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Monbiot is saying what I've been saying all along.

It's fine to have a problem with neoliberalism and globalisation. But voting for Brexit and leaving the Tories to implement it, or voting for a billionaire property developer who staffs his hotel and other projects with immigrants, is an act of supreme folly.

On the surface they may have enticing sound bites, but these are the same people who designed the system you are trying to escape from.

But what else can we do other than a revolution?

With these votes they are reminded that the old working class is still there.  They can't continue to ride rough shod over its interests any more.  That message has finally been rammed home.

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1 minute ago, kzb said:

But what else can we do other than a revolution?

With these votes they are reminded that the old working class is still there.  They can't continue to ride rough shod over its interests any more.  That message has finally been rammed home.

They still are not listening though. People voted for brexit and trump because they are sexist, wracist, thick.  It was also the fault of being unable to get the message across so that the plebs could understand. 

Revolution it is then

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2 hours ago, durhamborn said:

The economy is great,it must be,over half the north east get sent free money every week/month by the government to watch TV and walk around B&M (or drive around on a mobility scooter if the nash are about).Better than working in huge dirty factories and down mines.We dont even need to build ships,the Chinese get them from Korea and ship us cargo loads of free stuff.Its a miracle economy if you ask me.Brown was a genious.

Well Browns attempt to get everyone either on the public sector payroll or benefit is starting to backfire:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/oct/19/durham-teaching-assistants-vote-strike-pay-cuts

Going by my experience of teaching assistants, most would have never turned up at school as kids.

I dont know hwy the LA just does not mandate that TAs are required to have GCSE English and Maths passes. That would clear the lot of them out.

 

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Oh FFS. I dont know whetehr the jounro is nuts, or, if hes correct, Durham council is.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/06/teaching-assistants-durham-pay-slashed-women-lions-of-durham-grunwick

' These are women who teach algebra and French, who look after the coach trips and the school play. The difficult kids spit, swear, even kick them. One morning a mum asked the school if Marie could come round. She was about to kill herself and there was only one woman she wanted to see. '

Yes to the last two. No to to the first two - they are not teachers FFS!

' For all this, these women are paid about £20,000 a year – well below the average British salary. They routinely work early mornings, evenings and weekends – without ever claiming overtime. And at the end of the week they may have to take home memories of kids with cigarette burns inflicted by their parents, or reports of sexual abuse. '

Really! Are Durham paying 20k for a bunch of under educated pot washers.

' Some of the TAs stand to lose nearly £5,000 a year. Some are considering other jobs, swapping the education of children for call centres. Jan told me how her daughter, also a teaching assistant, would no longer be able to afford her mortgage, so “in a panic” had sold her starter home. '

Which would imply they are paid 20K/year FFS!

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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Well Browns attempt to get everyone either on the public sector payroll or benefit is starting to backfire:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/oct/19/durham-teaching-assistants-vote-strike-pay-cuts

Going by my experience of teaching assistants, most would have never turned up at school as kids.

I dont know hwy the LA just does not mandate that TAs are required to have GCSE English and Maths passes. That would clear the lot of them out.

 

I think they are struggling to find enough teachers with basic skills in maths and English without trying to ensure that TAs are also literate and numerate. 

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1 minute ago, One-percent said:

I think they are struggling to find enough teachers with basic skills in maths and English without trying to ensure that TAs are also literate and numerate. 

My son primary school teacher - a graduate apparently - could not do the maths required of an 11 year old.

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9 minutes ago, One-percent said:

I think they are struggling to find enough teachers with basic skills in maths and English without trying to ensure that TAs are also literate and numerate. 

I still cannot work how you can get teachers ith a degree but cannot do the basic maths.

I went to one of my kids 'How we do Maths' nights. Where we meant to get a run down on current teaching methods.

This was for 6-10 year olds.

I asked a really simple question. I became apparent  very quickly that the school's Maths leader could not do fractions.

And she also had a degree.

Why FFS are we letting people do degrees without basic Maths skills?

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