SarahBell Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/07/cps-considers-complaint-that-leave-campaigns-misled-eu-referendu/ If this is the case they every manifesto promise not adhered to needs looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEATH Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 What about the people saying the economy would collapse, world war 3 etc. In the end we got 20p on marmite and adulterated toblerones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copydude Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 11 hours ago, DEATH said: In the end we got 20p on marmite and adulterated toblerones. That definitely needs referring to the CPS. Talk about 'enemies of the people'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 12 hours ago, DEATH said: What about the people saying the economy would collapse, world war 3 etc. In the end we got 20p on marmite and adulterated toblerones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blobloblob Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I'm truly sick of this one and I know I'm preaching to the mostly converted but what the hell. Here's the picture: Here's the caption beneath: "The Vote Leave bus with the disputed claim that the NHS would get an extra £350 million if Britain left the EU" The claim that the Vote Leave campaign said that the NHS would get an extra £350 million is a lie, and is easily provably so. However, anyone who needs it proving to them must firstly be getting fundamentally confused between 1) a government and 2) a campaign group in a single issue referendum. For anyone not keeping up with me at this point, governments make decisions on public spending on things like health services, while campaign groups try to persuade people to support the point of view that they are campaigning for. Campaign groups do not make spending decisions over public finances. Anyway, back to the proof: For something to be "a lie", it must be a statement in the first place. For example, I could say "I'm wearing blue socks". That's a statement; it may or may not be true and I know what colour socks I'm wearing so if I'm not wearing blue socks then I'm lying. Another example of a statement could be "We will fund the NHS instead". "Let's fund our NHS instead" is not a statement; grammatically speaking it's an imperative. An alternative wording could be "Fund our NHS instead", while another example of an imperative could be "Wear blue socks". These are imperatives, or commands. The "let's" form of an imperative is considered more polite than an outright order, but it is nonetheless a command and not a statement. I'll tell you now I'm wearing black socks. So, if I say "Let's wear blue socks" - is that a lie? How can it be? Obviously it isn't; I'm calling on people to wear blue socks not telling people that I am wearing blue socks. Back to the confusion. I'm pretty sure that the Vote Leave campaign didn't think they were the government and didn't believe that they had responsibility for making decisions on public spending. I'd hazard a strong guess that they knew they were a campaign group in a single issue referendum. That being the case, they might make a call for more NHS spending, but they couldn't actually increase the spending themselves. People who state that the message on the bus said that NHS spending would be increased therefore are either showing that they don't understand the difference between a government and a campaign, or if they do, then they themselves are lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 1 hour ago, blobloblob said: I'm truly sick of this one and I know I'm preaching to the mostly converted but what the hell. Here's the picture: Here's the caption beneath: "The Vote Leave bus with the disputed claim that the NHS would get an extra £350 million if Britain left the EU" The claim that the Vote Leave campaign said that the NHS would get an extra £350 million is a lie, and is easily provably so. However, anyone who needs it proving to them must firstly be getting fundamentally confused between 1) a government and 2) a campaign group in a single issue referendum. For anyone not keeping up with me at this point, governments make decisions on public spending on things like health services, while campaign groups try to persuade people to support the point of view that they are campaigning for. Campaign groups do not make spending decisions over public finances. Anyway, back to the proof: For something to be "a lie", it must be a statement in the first place. For example, I could say "I'm wearing blue socks". That's a statement; it may or may not be true and I know what colour socks I'm wearing so if I'm not wearing blue socks then I'm lying. Another example of a statement could be "We will fund the NHS instead". "Let's fund our NHS instead" is not a statement; grammatically speaking it's an imperative. An alternative wording could be "Fund our NHS instead", while another example of an imperative could be "Wear blue socks". These are imperatives, or commands. The "let's" form of an imperative is considered more polite than an outright order, but it is nonetheless a command and not a statement. I'll tell you now I'm wearing black socks. So, if I say "Let's wear blue socks" - is that a lie? How can it be? Obviously it isn't; I'm calling on people to wear blue socks not telling people that I am wearing blue socks. Back to the confusion. I'm pretty sure that the Vote Leave campaign didn't think they were the government and didn't believe that they had responsibility for making decisions on public spending. I'd hazard a strong guess that they knew they were a campaign group in a single issue referendum. That being the case, they might make a call for more NHS spending, but they couldn't actually increase the spending themselves. People who state that the message on the bus said that NHS spending would be increased therefore are either showing that they don't understand the difference between a government and a campaign, or if they do, then they themselves are lying. Very nicely put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ill_handle_it Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Saw a reference to this in the comments. EU lawyer suggests referendums should be banned. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/23/lawyer-ban-referendums-save-eu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ill_handle_it said: EU lawyer suggests referendums should be banned. Are guillotines banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 14 hours ago, blobloblob said: I'm truly sick of this one and I know I'm preaching to the mostly converted but what the hell. Here's the picture: Here's the caption beneath: "The Vote Leave bus with the disputed claim that the NHS would get an extra £350 million if Britain left the EU" The claim that the Vote Leave campaign said that the NHS would get an extra £350 million is a lie, and is easily provably so. However, anyone who needs it proving to them must firstly be getting fundamentally confused between 1) a government and 2) a campaign group in a single issue referendum. For anyone not keeping up with me at this point, governments make decisions on public spending on things like health services, while campaign groups try to persuade people to support the point of view that they are campaigning for. Campaign groups do not make spending decisions over public finances. Anyway, back to the proof: For something to be "a lie", it must be a statement in the first place. For example, I could say "I'm wearing blue socks". That's a statement; it may or may not be true and I know what colour socks I'm wearing so if I'm not wearing blue socks then I'm lying. Another example of a statement could be "We will fund the NHS instead". "Let's fund our NHS instead" is not a statement; grammatically speaking it's an imperative. An alternative wording could be "Fund our NHS instead", while another example of an imperative could be "Wear blue socks". These are imperatives, or commands. The "let's" form of an imperative is considered more polite than an outright order, but it is nonetheless a command and not a statement. I'll tell you now I'm wearing black socks. So, if I say "Let's wear blue socks" - is that a lie? How can it be? Obviously it isn't; I'm calling on people to wear blue socks not telling people that I am wearing blue socks. Back to the confusion. I'm pretty sure that the Vote Leave campaign didn't think they were the government and didn't believe that they had responsibility for making decisions on public spending. I'd hazard a strong guess that they knew they were a campaign group in a single issue referendum. That being the case, they might make a call for more NHS spending, but they couldn't actually increase the spending themselves. People who state that the message on the bus said that NHS spending would be increased therefore are either showing that they don't understand the difference between a government and a campaign, or if they do, then they themselves are lying. I'd say it's not even a command - it's a suggestion. So somehow a suggestion has morphed into a broken promise....from campaigners who had no manifesto to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Moreover, Vote Leave was a cross-party campaign between Labour, the Tories and UKIP. Last time I checked Labour, The Tories and UKIP weren't a single political party that could set a manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copydude Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 38 minutes ago, Ill_handle_it said: EU lawyer suggests referendums should be banned. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/23/lawyer-ban-referendums-save-eu/ This piece references another written at the tine of the Dutch referendum on Ukraine. Quote It is hardly democratic that 30% of voters in one member state can block a policy approved by 27 member states, writes Fraser Cameron, a former European Commission official Referenda are becoming a huge problem for the EU. The latest result in the Netherlands on the Association Agreement with Ukraine is probably the worst possible outcome. If the turnout had been below 30% the Dutch government could have safely ignored the vote. But with just over 30% voting, and rejecting the Association Agreement with Ukraine by 64-36 the government will have to consult with parliament about how to proceed. I think in fact this argues the case for referenda. EU one-size fits all policies clearly don't and referenda provide necessary checks and balances. The numbers don't tell a story about democracy: there are 27 different countries with as many different reasons for voting on this issue. And referenda in many of the other countries would have produced the same result as in the Netherlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 2 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said: I'd say it's not even a command - it's a suggestion. So somehow a suggestion has morphed into a broken promise....from campaigners who had no manifesto to begin with. The lie isn't the suggestion, it's the claim that there is £350m a week to reallocate to begin with, as we've done ad infinitum. It doesn't take account of the rebate which is already part of the UK government pot that they can do what they like with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copydude Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Have it your way. It's actually 347m 12 shillings and sixpence three farthings. It's still millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, copydude said: Have it your way. It's actually 347m 12 shillings and sixpence three farthings. It's still millions. Which is why the leave campaign ran it persistently despite being told by the ONS that it was misleading. They knew that arguments about the precise amount just cemented in people's minds the idea that we send loadsamoney to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: The lie isn't the suggestion, it's the claim that there is £350m a week to reallocate to begin with, as we've done ad infinitum. It doesn't take account of the rebate which is already part of the UK government pot that they can do what they like with. The fuss has always about a "broken promise" - hence "we've been mislead". As for the rebate, it's not guaranteed to last, especially when more countries will require bail-outs (of which the UK has already paid £5Bn to Ireland and Portugal) - and/or our contribution to the UK is likely to increase drastically if/when bailouts are called for. Essentially, you can't trust the EU on that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Talking of courts and Brexit, Interesting 10 seconds of video. Play 30-40s mark a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Toast Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 On 09/11/2016 at 9:15 AM, DEATH said: What about the people saying the economy would collapse, world war 3 etc. In the end we got 20p on marmite and adulterated toblerones. Harder to argue because those things - however unlikely - could arguably happen if we left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blobloblob Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 4 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: The lie isn't the suggestion, it's the claim that there is £350m a week to reallocate to begin with, as we've done ad infinitum. It doesn't take account of the rebate which is already part of the UK government pot that they can do what they like with. It didn't say we will spend a particular amount and it didn't say let's spend a particular amount. It just didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 27 minutes ago, blobloblob said: It didn't say we will spend a particular amount and it didn't say let's spend a particular amount. It just didn't. It did say we currently spend a particular amount on EU membership when actually we spend less than that. A lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 4 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: Which is why the leave campaign ran it persistently despite being told by the ONS that it was misleading. They knew that arguments about the precise amount just cemented in people's minds the idea that we send loadsamoney to the EU. What happened to the promised interest rate rise by our then standing chancellor ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blobloblob Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It did say we currently spend a particular amount on EU membership when actually we spend less than that. A lie. It equates to our gross contribution. Everyone knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleMeat Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I am looking forward to the CPS hauling in the labour cabinet of 2005 over their election manifesto promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which they broke in 2007. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487653/Labours-broken-promise-referendum-new-EU-Treaty-betrayal-public-trust.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 41 minutes ago, blobloblob said: It equates to our gross contribution. Everyone knows that. It doesn't. We have a rebate deducted at source. It doesn't make any sense to pretend that this money will become available after leaving the EU since we already have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libspero Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: It doesn't. We have a rebate deducted at source. It doesn't make any sense to pretend that this money will become available after leaving the EU since we already have it. I'd say it's somewhat misleading, but not really a lie. If I say I earn £20k I wouldn't say that's a lie, even if I actually only earn £15k because £5k tax is deducted at source. They said we send £350 million a year to Brussels.. well, yeah that's our gross contribution, sure we actually get a bit of a rebate. I guess you are basically arguing the toss over whether it is technically accurate to say that rather than sending the full amount and part of it being returned, we actually just send a smaller amount. Checks and balances.. I don't think it would have made any difference to the outcome of the referendum because I don't think people would have comprehended the difference even if it had been accurate. Further more, since the advert clearly doesn't state that £350m is going to be given to the NHS, just that they should receive more, it seems like a bit of a fuss over nothing to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 On 11/9/2016 at 9:15 AM, DEATH said: What about the people saying the economy would collapse, world war 3 etc. In the end we got 20p on marmite and adulterated toblerones. They must be kicking themselves they missed the Toblerone one - it might have swung enough votes to have prevented WW3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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