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libspero

Another Electric Car Thread

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On the basis that Mrs Spero will probably need a new car in another year or two  wondered whether it might be worth looking at electric.

Given that she rarely drives outside of Warrington range anxiety shouldn't be too much of an issue,  but on the off chance she wants to visit my folks (who live 100 miles away),  that would be the minimum one-way range requirement.

Can't be that expensive right..  regular car without all the engine, gearbox, fuel system etc plus £4,750 tax break from the government?

Looking at the Nissan Leaf..   £30k  (25K after incentive,  or 27K if you want the "nice one").

Compared to the Nissan Note, 1.2 Petrol,  £16K or £18K if you want the "nice one".

She doesn't do a lot of mileage, maybe spends £50 per month on fuel..   fag packet calcs..  10 years to break even,  at which point the leaf would be due a new battery. That also excludes the cost of electricity which wouldn't be entirely trivial.

How does anyone justify an electric vehicle..  unless you are commuting the full range everyday and your employer gives you free electricity I can't see how it becomes viable?

 

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I passed a Nissan Leaf last week. Got talking to the Nissan guy. He said that he loved it and could not go back to a combustion engine - well, he would say that. He surprised me when he told me that it cost 28K. Surprised me even more when he said that the batteries last 2 years. I assumed he was wrong on that as I think the Toyota ones come with a 5 year warranty.

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35 minutes ago, libspero said:

On the basis that Mrs Spero will probably need a new car in another year or two  wondered whether it might be worth looking at electric.

Given that she rarely drives outside of Warrington range anxiety shouldn't be too much of an issue,  but on the off chance she wants to visit my folks (who live 100 miles away),  that would be the minimum one-way range requirement.

Can't be that expensive right..  regular car without all the engine, gearbox, fuel system etc plus £4,750 tax break from the government?

Looking at the Nissan Leaf..   £30k  (25K after incentive,  or 27K if you want the "nice one").

Compared to the Nissan Note, 1.2 Petrol,  £16K or £18K if you want the "nice one".

She doesn't do a lot of mileage, maybe spends £50 per month on fuel..   fag packet calcs..  10 years to break even,  at which point the leaf would be due a new battery. That also excludes the cost of electricity which wouldn't be entirely trivial.

How does anyone justify an electric vehicle..  unless you are commuting the full range everyday and your employer gives you free electricity I can't see how it becomes viable?

 

That's your answer in a nutshell :)

Electrics are (gross oversimplification alert!) expensive to buy, cheap to fuel up (leccy is cheap compared to petrol).

If you're only buying petrol once a month, then the economics won't stack up.

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I made all the financial calculations to have either a Mitsubishi PHEV and/or a Leaf/i3 as our main car and school run mobile. I ruled them both out collecting a new Mercedes E220 SE Saloon today and a Skoda CitiGo which I pick up on Thursday. MrsLTS opted for cash in lieu of company car. In summary I don't think we are quite there yet with the technology and expect things to move quite fast on the high end cars within 5 years and 10 for the low budget ones. Battery tech will easily double the range (lithium air) and with a straight face these will only replaced when driverless cars are here and that's going to happen.

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Put yer balls on, and get s V8:blink:

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1 hour ago, libspero said:

How does anyone justify an electric vehicle..  unless you are commuting the full range everyday and your employer gives you free electricity I can't see how it becomes viable?

Go and look at the BIK rates for electric and plug-in hybrids. All will be revealed...

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Bought a Renault Zoe last year £19k new - dealers discount £5k £5k from govt so cost £9k. 85 mile range, but there is a rapid one hour charge option. We have to hire the battery and used their finance. We pay £175 per month. Three of us share the commute from Manclesfield to Manchester every day- parking for electric car central Manchester £8 pcm. We reckon electricity about £1 return trip. So basically three of us pay around £3 per day for a round trip commute 35 miles. Peak Railfare £12 per day each minimum.

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1 hour ago, Futuroid said:

Go and look at the BIK rates for electric and plug-in hybrids. All will be revealed...

I have a PHEV company car... for that it's (currently) a no brainer.

As a personal vehicle an all electric car still just doesn't make sense (and I was trying to be fairly open minded about it).

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Leaf owner here and after having driven 26k miles in one I think I'm reasonably well qualified to give an opinion.

1 - It cannot be your only car. It just can't. End of.

2 - If you cover lots of short trips, totalling perhaps 50-60 miles per day then it is a total and complete "no-brainer". Even if you were switching from a supermini, you're getting a very well specified car that returns the equivalent of around 250 mpg. The fuel savings pay for the thing. Again, end of.

3 - Also, the more short trips you do, the more the Leaf makes sense. Little trips, especially from cold, are not good for conventional engines. As well as poore mpg, wear and tear increases. The Leaf laps this kind of stuff up without so much as a murmur.

4 - It's warm in winter. You set a timer and when everyone else is defrosting, you're getting into a de-iced car with a lovely snuggly cabin. The joy of this cannot be overstated.

5 - It's just lovely to drive. No gearbox, smooth, quiet and VERY quick off of the mark.

6 - Forget longer journeys. Charging is no longer free and it's a ball-ache anyway. Buy a Leaf for "lots of short trips" motoring.

7 - The 30Kw/h Leaf brings more range, always welcome, but not enough to make long journeys viable. The new Zoe just might. If it can genuinely cover 150 miles at motorway speeds in the worst of weather then it just made a whole host of cars obsolete. If Tesla bring a £25k car to the market that offers even better range then you're looking at the death of the conventional car in 5-10 years.

8 - Battery life. Ours is just over two years old, and a proper diagnostic via an ODB port shows almost no deterioration on battery capacity. They should be good for 5 years without issue and then it's just a case of chucking the car away and grabbing another one.

9 - "What happens when everyone has one?" - For me, this is the big one. All of that tax on fuel needs to come from somewhere else. I can't see it going on domestic electricty unless a whole smart meter infrastructure can distinguish between charging an EV and running a toaster. At worst an EV will be no more expensive to run than a conventional car, and by that time they'll have a 400 mile range anyway.

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 Very interesting.

As far as I can work out you are basically paying a £10k premium for electric... so the fact you consider it a no brainier after fuel is factored in is interesting. I guess as you say you need to do a pretty high mileage.

I can believe the battery life claim... Nissan reckon a 10% drop after 10 years With the only caveat being that you don't fast charge it very much.  I'm sure that is at the optimistic end, but equally it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect at least 8-10 years before they need changing out. Be interesting to know the cost of a new battery set too. Going by the list prices of the cars at least £5k plus fitting.

On one YouTube owner review the guy claimed his car (30kwh) only charged about 40% after 8 hours on a standard charge.  Is that the sort of charge rate you experience too and is that ever an issue?

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I'd be wary of assuming the battery will last 10 years just because you've seen virtually no deterioration in two years. Lithium batteries don't tend to slowly lose capacity over time, they go from being near perfect to essentially scrap metal very very rapidly.

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10 hours ago, the gardener said:

I'd be wary of assuming the battery will last 10 years just because you've seen virtually no deterioration in two years. Lithium batteries don't tend to slowly lose capacity over time, they go from being near perfect to essentially scrap metal very very rapidly.

Well there are plenty of Leafs out there at 40k miles and the fact that it no longer gets rapid charged helps a lot I think. If I got another 12-15k miles out of it and threw it away it wouldn't be a disaster.

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There are loads of Leafs and iMievs (and their two French clones) around who are now 6-7 years old. Reports of battery-troubles on electric car forums have been very rare so far, so I would expect 10 years to not be a problem (except minor degradation, i.e. a loss of 10-20% capacity).

What does seem to make a difference is how fast you charge the battery pack, those rare cases with battery problem were all people who used a lot of fast chargers and did plenty of long distance driving (which means multiple fast charges within hours).

This problem with frequent fast charging will disappear with larger battery packs that are becoming available now (40KWh and more) as with larger packs the ratio between the charging current and the battery capacity decreases which means less strain for the individual cell during fast charging.

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16 hours ago, longtomsilver said:

I made all the financial calculations to have either a Mitsubishi PHEV and/or a Leaf/i3 as our main car and school run mobile. I ruled them both out collecting a new Mercedes E220 SE Saloon today

Arguing that electric cars are too expensive and then buying an E-Class Benz is a bit of a contradiction, since from a financial POV anything more than a Dacia is a luxury as a Dacia will get you from A to B just like a Benz.

We bought an iMiev because it's much more fun to drive than any other comparable small city car and since we bought ours second-hand the price difference compared to a second-hand fuel burner car of the same age and mileage was minimal.

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Eagle said:

Arguing that electric cars are too expensive and then buying an E-Class Benz is a bit of a contradiction, since from a financial POV anything more than a Dacia is a luxury as a Dacia will get you from A to B just like a Benz.

We bought an iMiev because it's much more fun to drive than any other comparable small city car and since we bought ours second-hand the price difference compared to a second-hand fuel burner car of the same age and mileage was minimal.

 

 

The Mercedes is also for business use and will occasional have clients and important people on board. 

All the electric small cars have the finish of my Skoda CitiGo yet are priced £15,000 more. 

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With the VW Golf you can get a very similar specification of car with each fuel option to compare. 

On a quick search of Auto-trader, 2015 cars:

Cheapest Electric only Golf (E-Golf)-  £18,999

Cheapest PHEV Golf (GTE) -  £20,950

Cheapest equivalent petrol Golf (GTI) -  £16,950

Cheapest equivalent diesel Golf (GTD) -  £16,699

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I wasn't even aware that there was an electric version of the Golf. That it is just a Golf but with an electric option is an encouraging sign, that electric cars are becoming more mainstream and it's starting to be just another option rather than something that insists on calling attention to itself.

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As a second car, electric works great (we have a Renault Zoe for my wife, and a boring diesel estate for me - would have gone for petrol is it was available in the model) We could probably do with just an electric at a push (purely on range) but the biggest challenge would have an electric car with a big enough boot for those all important recycling and IKEA trips (if we only had one car). So range, yes maybe but on internal size - not as easily. 

I'm totally sold on having part electric as a concept but the price is expense unless you get a deal on something like a Renault Zoe lease which ends up being very little per month. 

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8 minutes ago, Snafu said:

 the biggest challenge would have an electric car with a big enough boot for those all important recycling and IKEA trips (if we only had one car). So range, yes maybe but on internal size - not as easily.

The Hyundai Ioniq electric might be what you are looking for.

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Just now, The Eagle said:

The Hyundai Ioniq electric might be what you are looking for.

Yepp that or Kia. I'm waiting for the Kia Optima Sportswagon (e.g. estate) plug in hybrid. That's my next car I suspect. 7 year warranty, 20-30 mile range on electric, biggish boot. Not stupidly priced if a year or two old either I suspect. 

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3 hours ago, Hail the Tripod said:

With the VW Golf you can get a very similar specification of car with each fuel option to compare. 

On a quick search of Auto-trader, 2015 cars:

Cheapest Electric only Golf (E-Golf)-  £18,999

Cheapest PHEV Golf (GTE) -  £20,950

Cheapest equivalent petrol Golf (GTI) -  £16,950

Cheapest equivalent diesel Golf (GTD) -  £16,699

True,  though you are presumably looking at second hand cars there?

VW state their RRP price at £31600 for the E-Golf  (£26K after incentive).  Almost identical to the Leaf (funny that).

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