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The Masked Tulip

Racism

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I am getting more than a tad concerned by the increasingly racist threads in this forum which seem to have less and less to do with house prices, a house price crash and/or a property bubble.

It reminds me of those who are bitter and resentful about their own lives who, at best, become bullies and who, at worst, end up herding people into ghettos and concentration camps before burning and gassing them.

The Nazi Party in 1930s' Germany appealed to those who were unemployed, or on poor wages and disenfranchised by targeting the Jews, the Poles, the Czechs, the Russians and other Slav peoples. It too started somewhere - a few angry men sat around a table in a beer hall complaining about others taking their jobs, and ended up with tens of millions dead.

Seventy years later, as a testament to those millions who died, it is the duty of all good people to speak out against such racism, especially if the beer halls have been replaced by internet forums and chat rooms.

I wish to testify about the Feldenstein case because it was the most significant trial of the period. It is important not only for the tribunal to understand it, but for the whole German people. But in order to understand it, one must understand the period in which it happened.

There was a fever over the land, a fever of disgrace, of indignity, of hunger. We had a democracy, yes, but it was torn by elements within. Above all there was fear, fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbours, and fear of ourselves. Only when you understand that can you understand what Hitler meant to us, because he said to us:

"Lift your heads. Be proud to be German. There are devils among us, communists, liberals, Jews, gypsies. Once these devils will be destroyed your misery will be destroyed."

It was the old, old story of the sacrificial lamb.

What about those of us who knew better, we who knew the words were lies and worse than lies? Why did we sit silent? Why did we take part? Because we loved our country. What difference does it make if a few political extremists lose their rights? What difference does it make if a few racial minorities lose their rights? It is only a passing phase. It is only a stage we are going through. It will be discarded sooner or later. Hitler himself will be discarded -- sooner or later. The country is in danger. We will march out of the shadows! We will go forward. FORWARD is the great password.

And history tells how well we succeeded, your Honour. We succeeded beyond out wildest dreams. The very elements of hate and power about Hitler that mesmerized Germany, mesmerized the world. We found ourselves with sudden powerful allies. Things that had been denied to us as a democracy were open to us now. The world said, "Go ahead. Take it. Take it! Take Sudetenland! Take the Rhineland! Re-militarize it! Take all of Austria! Take it!"

And then, one day we looked around and found that we were in an even more terrible danger. The ritual began in this courtroom swept over the land like a raging, roaring disease. What was going to be a "passing phase" had become the way of life.

Where were we? Where were we when Hitler began shrieking his hate in Reichstag? Where were we when our neighbours were being dragged out in the middle of the night to Dachau?! Where were we when every village in Germany has a railroad terminal where cars were filled with children being carried out to their extermination! Where were we when they cried out in the night to us. Deaf, dumb, blind!!

My council says we were not aware of the extermination of the millions. He would give you the excuse: We were only aware of the extermination of the hundreds. Does that make us any the less guilty? Maybe we didn't know the details. But if we didn't know, it was because we didn't want to know.

I am going to tell them the truth. I am going to tell them the truth if the whole world conspires against it. I am going to tell them the truth about their Ministry of Justice. Werner Lammpe, an old man who cries into his Bible now, an old man who profited by the property expropriation of every man he sent to a concentration camp. Friedrich Hofstetter, the "good German" who knew how to take orders, who sent men before him to be sterilized like so many digits. Emil Hahn, the decayed, corrupt bigot, obsessed by the evil within himself. And Ernst Jannings, worse than any of them because he knew what they were, and he went along with them. Ernst Jannings: Who made his life excrement, because he walked with them.

Ernst Jannings, Nuremburg War Crimes Trial

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

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Well it's free speech for everyone or no one. Could maybe do with some flags for possible trolls if they are as Durch says they are. I'm guessing they've not been caught with their IP's for multiple ID's.

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Two things I cannot stand..

Bigot's who will judge on mass generalisations against those that are different to them..

who will create within themselves resentment to those that are different to them. In a way that they can push their insecurities and anger into areas that they simply can't or won't understand..

bigots.. Hate them.. infact between them and the french I can't decide which I dislike more..

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Guest Bart of Darkness
I am getting more than a tad concerned by the increasingly racist threads in this forum which seem to have less and less to do with house prices, a house price crash and/or a property bubble.

Starting racist threads is a good way to discredit this site. Trolls know this, that's why they do it.

Of course, not all racist threads originate from trolls, but as there's been a recent increase in both trolls and racist threads, I'll leave it to you to work out any link.

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You're right of course TMT...

I can only assume that those that run this site are in sympathy with the BNP et al. It's one thing to discuss immigration but quite another when the forum is permitted to become a soap-box for the extreme right.

Now watch how your thread gets flamed by those advocating free speech, etc. which includes the right to incite racial hatred it seems... :(

Sorry to disagree with you Durch; but it's not unstoppable. We all know who they are...

When I first joined this site I reporeted a thread which made reference to a particular group of property speculators being "Jews". I could see no relevance to the race or religion of the speculators, it was a clearly racist remark, IMO. I was really, really disappointed that the moderators replied saying that they felt "comfortable" with the post

This was some time ago now.

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Can't they just be moved straight off the main discussion forum into the off topic forum or something? It does seem to detract from the central message somewhat.

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I am getting more than a tad concerned by the increasingly racist threads in this forum which seem to have less and less to do with house prices, a house price crash and/or a property bubble.

TMT

Agreed. I note that there are a number of members (or one with multiple id's) who post almost exclusively on race and immigration related issues.

It reminds me of those who are bitter and resentful about their own lives who, at best, become bullies and who, at worst, end up herding people into ghettos and concentration camps before burning and gassing them.

I'm not sure whether the key participants in race related posts are resentful of their own lives or have any interest in house prices. I'm more suspicious that they find this forum an attractive place to promote extreme views to those who do feel frustrated about their own situation.

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i would leave for the spirit of free speech.

this forum is fairly educated and its nice to be reminded of it when you get the change to compare notes with some kind of bigot. i dont think too many people are going to join up from what they post. unless they get stupid, but the enoch powel bloke who posts does so in a decent way and its best we take those views on board rather than censor them. the rest who post for kicks would get bored.

let them stand so we can see them. they may learn the error of their ways.

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Guest magnoliawalls

This thread belongs in the About HPC forum.

And any thread on immigration that is not directly relevant to houseprices should be in the off topic forum.

Racist posts should be reported by those who are upset by them but imho it is up to the moderators to decide whether or not they agree. Immigration may be relevant to house prices and discussing it is not racist, but immigration threads attract the usual trolls, bigots and idiots.

I fear that if all discussion of immigration related issues is suppressed by liberal minded folk, more people will find arguments, like those from the BNP persuasive.

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It will get worse to, just wait until the masses need to blame, appeal to the disenfranchised

wormtounges!

Once again though maggie i agree with your post above.

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It will get worse to, just wait until the masses need to blame, appeal to the disenfranchised

wormtounges!

Once again though maggie i agree with your post above.

You are right any faultlines in society become exacerbated when financial hard times occur.Be they class, geographic or ethnic. If fairly ordinary well educated people are no longer afraid to air views that 5 years ago would have been too un PC then it does make you wonder what will happen when the Sh!T hits the proverbial.

I agree though that it's free speech for all or none.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. "

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I think that racism is extremely dangerous.

As soon as you start to divide the world into us and them you automatically create the assumption that one set of rules and principles applies to us and another set applies to them.

Once you do that you have begun to lose your humanity and you are a few small steps of rational logic away from promoting bad things for "them" in order to achieve good things for "us"

And we all know where that leads.

The impact of immigration - emmigration and demographics in general obviously have an influence on house prices. But once we start to veer away from this and move towards the "us" and "them" then we are on a rocky road.

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I think that racism is extremely dangerous.

As soon as you start to divide the world into us and them you automatically create the assumption that one set of rules and principles applies to us and another set applies to them.

Once you do that you have begun to lose your humanity and you are a few small steps of rational logic away from promoting bad things for "them" in order to achieve good things for "us"

And we all know where that leads.

The impact of immigration - emmigration and demographics in general obviously have an influence on house prices. But once we start to veer away from this and move towards the "us" and "them" then we are on a rocky road.

Are you proposing a "one world government" then? Because all governments treat their own citizens differently from those of other states.

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I wonder if the racist threads have a more sinister expanation. It is well known that the BNP plan to exploit the economic hardships and bewilderment caused by Peak Oil to gain power. We are at present in the foothills of Peak Oil. Broadly speaking, the price rises are due to increases in global production tending to roll over the top of a curve. The crisi is likely to harden severely over the next five years. It is possible the BNP have folk posting on these forums to "test the water" as regards the reaction to racism. In fact, they would be pretty dopey if they were not doing that.

Are people conscious of this as an issue on other forums? Does it seem to be getting worse? Regrettably, I do not doubt that a serious economic crisis will lead to (a lot) of race-related violence.

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I wonder if the racist threads have a more sinister expanation. It is well known that the BNP plan to exploit the economic hardships and bewilderment caused by Peak Oil to gain power. We are at present in the foothills of Peak Oil. Broadly speaking, the price rises are due to increases in global production tending to roll over the top of a curve. The crisi is likely to harden severely over the next five years. It is possible the BNP have folk posting on these forums to "test the water" as regards the reaction to racism. In fact, they would be pretty dopey if they were not doing that.

Are people conscious of this as an issue on other forums? Does it seem to be getting worse? Regrettably, I do not doubt that a serious economic crisis will lead to (a lot) of race-related violence.

I don't think they are that organised to be honest. My own opinion is that people are just expressing their opinions whithout fear of worrying what people with think. Also the anonimity of the internet allows people to express views they might tone down in "polite company".

Also if the BNP (who mustered about 150 for their leaders trial) are posting on forums en mass they should be drowned out by ********, UAF, Liberal, Labour and Conservative activists.)

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i would leave for the spirit of free speech.

this forum is fairly educated and its nice to be reminded of it when you get the change to compare notes with some kind of bigot. i dont think too many people are going to join up from what they post. unless they get stupid, but the enoch powel bloke who posts does so in a decent way and its best we take those views on board rather than censor them. the rest who post for kicks would get bored.

let them stand so we can see them. they may learn the error of their ways.

Agreed!

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Fascinating post and thank you Masked Tulip for the various pieces.

There is a difference between trolling (and I think there is a racist troll putting up racist topics) and people having experiences that lead them to have opinions about particular groups. One of the great problems in a multicultural society is when any group feel disenfranchised, including the indigenous group. This is likely to come up in the natural course of posting. How do we acknowlege these things without conceding defeat to those who are baying for rivers of blood. Personally I would prefer that more people felt part of the same community since we may treat each other better. Its not just a one way problem, and the problem I observe in Britain is the politically correct pretense of a homogenity that doesn't exist (or only exists in fits and starts and is very individually driven).

These things may not have a lot to do with house prices globally but they certainly affect demographics and local house prices. Think about the places where house prices have stayed relatively low. What do they tend to have in common? I would say low education levels, hence low income levels, and a high level of tension between cultural packs fighting over the same scraps.

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I can only assume that those that run this site are in sympathy with the BNP et al. It's one thing to discuss immigration but quite another when the forum is permitted to become a soap-box for the extreme right. [whoops_apocalypse]

Like many, you make the mistake of conflating racism with views on immigration. The Masked Tulip expressed concerns about racist threads. One can be both anti-racist and opposed to immigration (in whole or in part). The BNP, for example, at least as stated in their manifesto, are opposed to illegal immigration (except legitimate refugees in accordance with the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees) regardless of race.

Edited to add: "at least as stated in their manifesto".

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I can only assume that those that run this site are in sympathy with the BNP et al. It's one thing to discuss immigration but quite another when the forum is permitted to become a soap-box for the extreme right. [whoops_apocalypse]

Like many, you make the mistake of conflating racism with views on immigration. The Masked Tulip expressed concerns about racist threads. One can be both anti-racist and opposed to immigration (in whole or in part). The BNP, for example, are opposed to illegal immigration (except legitimate refugees in accordance with the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees) regardless of race.

The BNP apology post?

I used to know someone in Australian National Action. Unfortunately he got shot to death by the leader of that hallowed organisation. Oh I know. Its not the same. The BNP has changed. Its not the National Front. In fact... it never was... and if there is any crossover in membership they were just confused little boys (who wore bovver boots and kicked people a lot). Sophistication of media and information management techniques does not impress me. What is going on in your hearts?

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Certainly smells like it Elizabeth.

Highly misleading too. I think we'd find the BNP attitude to immigrantion and immigrants runs quite a bit further than only being opposed to illegal immigration - even the bit that they're prepared to own up to in public.

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Are you proposing a "one world government" then? Because all governments treat their own citizens differently from those of other states.

Not at all, and I think your question answers itself. I am not in favour of the bland false homegeneity that some propose nor am I in favour of a one world state.

But you use a very important word in your question...

That word is CITIZEN. All citizens are equal under the law, all are sons of the soil and all should expect equal treatment. That is what it means to be a citizen.

However I do think that there is an argument that connects HPI with immigration. Here I am talking about white immigration as much as non white immigration. It is clear that the UK has undergone a sustained period of immigration. This may have fueled the multiple occupancy BTLs to some extent.

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Although the BNP are 'supposed' to be racist I'm sure there are racists in every party be it against black, white or green. It's just the party in question has a stigma that everyone tries to use to stop it rising in popularity. What about 'new labours' recent attempts to abolish christmas because it offends minorities? Winterfest? I don't think so thank you.

Racism is everywhere, and is against all races and is evil. However, freedom of speech must be allowed to all or no-one.

It would be nice to can this, and get on with HPC discussion.

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The BNP is a legal political entity.

The question we should be asking is why this Government feels it should be suppressing free speech.

In addition, we should also be listening to what is going on in the court with regard to the leader of the BNP's case. From what I read he did no than tell it how it was.

The Labour Government are currently paying immigrants £3,500 to leave the country, now that in my mind hails of Adolf and his evil crew of merry men.

So I think in my mind that the BNP are nothing more that people sitting on a different side, and that is what we need if we can debate the immigration problem (and it is a problem) like adults.

Creating Spin, Lies, and other means to silence a legal political party will do nothing more than send its members underground to enjoy cult status.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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