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Squeeky

Universal Basic Income

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the arguments are varied but I think it boils down to this:

The people who want to invent,create and learn - will. The people that want to game the system will. Giving people the ability to be happy doing the former rather than the latter comes through conditioning when they are 2-11 years old.

Think of a class where the A graders work all night to get A's and the F graders do nothing but hang out. When they go to class what if the F graders got a C. Would the A graders still work as hard or would they enjoy themselves doing more non productive activities ("hanging out") and be happy with a B? Is human endevour some how based on comparison with others? Or are most people achieving for their own benefit?

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Who's going to pay for this universal basic income ?

Not the rich I bet.

Although most of it will go straight in their pockets.

I am not their slave.

if you want a basic income, get a basic job, why the f**k should anyone else pay for you.

Edited by TheCountOfNowhere

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Who's going to pay for this universal basic income ?

Not the rich I bet.

Although most of it will go straight in their pockets.

I am not their slave.

if you want a basic income, get a basic job, why the f**k should anyone else pay for you.

We are all already paying for it anyway.

This would simply rebalance things so the workshy get less than they get today - and the workers actually get something back from everything they pay in.

Win win.

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could always just print the money and hand it out instead of gifting it to people with houses :)

It is coming more and more to the fore because the last big industry left is driving and logistics and its about to be automated. Transport is the biggest "industry" left in the US from taxi/bus drivers to HGV and everything else inbetween. Singapore is starting trials with self driving cars, There is a place in america too running self drive taxis this month. Self Driving HGVs have already been tested here. Tiawan has no train drivers they are all robot trains. Adidas has just opened a completely robot driven factory in atlanta as foxconn does the same in china. That is factories almost sealed and self running. We are now on a massive accelerated drive to automation, Just as an example ford said they expect to remove the steering wheel and internal combustion engine from there cars within ten years.

Now in some countries the young are already feeling the effects of this with near 60% unemployment so one of the solutions is to just have CI as opposed to people going hungry and tearing the county apart. On top of this if noone has any money noone buys anything so the system would collapse anyway.

so What to do? CI isbeing discussed now because the ultimate end game is that human beings are left with nothing to do and no income. Unless of course we just bubble up credit and house prices forever :)

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The trouble is it isn't "us" that you need to convince it is "them" i.e. the establishment. Can you imagine any political party getting this through parliament in the next 10, 20 or 30 years? The studies would all indicate that it would be "unaffordable", if the current state pension is unaffordable so they need to keep on putting up the retirement age what chance is there of a CI every being affordable?

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When the industrial revolution started 150 years ago it was essential to instil a work ethic into the new workforce. Prior to this there was really not the same concept of "jobs" and people had to have it drilled into them that work in the new factories was the price they paid for participation in society.

Unfortunately this has worked too well and now that industrialisation is coming to an end there are those who are psychologically unable to accept the concept of not working but still nevertheless participating. It's clear there will be fewer and fewer jobs and certainly not "enough" for everyone. We need to come to terms with the new reality and basic income is just inevitable, unless we reduce the number of people to match the number of jobs and I hope nobody is hoping for that.

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There is nothing inevitable about the UK government ever bringing in a Universal Income, in "3rd world countries" like India there are far more people than conventional jobs and there is no benefits system, people are left to fend for themselves. Why can't you imagine the far more likely scenario where in the future there will far more poor people around who will get no help from the state?

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There is nothing inevitable about the UK government ever bringing in a Universal Income, in "3rd world countries" like India there are far more people than conventional jobs and there is no benefits system, people are left to fend for themselves. Why can't you imagine the far more likely scenario where in the future there will far more poor people around who will get no help from the state?

Because eventually all those poor people with nothing to lose will come for you................................TPTB aren't stupid, there will be some kind of bribing device (not necessarily a basic income) to buy off the lower orders as automation increases through society over the coming decades. As it stands we are well on course for the blade-runner style society IMO.

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We already have a citizen's income......trouble is you have to be old to get it. I breathed a big sigh of relief when my state pension kicked in. If there's no rent/mortgage then even the basic pension is enough to live on as long as you don't care about expensive holidays and the like.

Mind you some of the people in work need a job to keep them out of mischief otherwise they would devote themselves to making other peoples' lives a misery full-time. :lol:

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The UK will introduce a basic income, but it will be one of the last countries in Europe to do so. Switzerland and the Nordics will lead the way thanks to having political systems that force the elite to respond to the wishes of the people (aka "democracy").

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Spot on!

I don't think you get the main point of this. There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

This provides the population with flexibility.

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I don't think you get the main point of this. There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

This provides the population with flexibility.

It took me 3 weeks to find someone to cut my neighbours hedge. It's a small frontage and the cheapest quote for a 1.5 hour job was £60 she didn't have (£35 would have been fair....bear in mind the cuttings go in her own recycle bins).

I did it myself in the end for a piece of cake and a cup of tea.

Appreciate and acknowledge that this is a really narrow view and take the more holistic point re jobs in general. Also I live in an affluent high employment area. I also appreciate this type of work is hugely unreliable.

Also I know and again acknowledge others who have struggled looking for a rewarding career which matches their education and that is really demoralising for them.

I am seeing more people labouring and earning £25 an hour because no one else wants to do physical jobs. And they are struggling to take weekends off due to demand for their 'odd job' services. Not sure I would want to do it for 45 years though.

Universal Income needs to encourage work but protect basic needs of those who need it. In my town we see benefits career families. Not many, but the area is nice so if you have a home and basic costs met then you are pretty much sorted. But I imagine living in Glasgow, in a tenament block is no fun for a family.

It's a tricky one....location needs to be a factor but that muddies the water.

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We are all already paying for it anyway.

This would simply rebalance things so the workshy get less than they get today - and the workers actually get something back from everything they pay in.

Win win.

In the models that I've read you pay tax on everything you earn.

Even the CI.

What a load of old tosh.

It'd instantly make many people worse off.

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It took me 3 weeks to find someone to cut my neighbours hedge. It's a small frontage and the cheapest quote for a 1.5 hour job was £60 she didn't have (£35 would have been fair....bear in mind the cuttings go in her own recycle bins).

I did it myself in the end for a piece of cake and a cup of tea.

Appreciate and acknowledge that this is a really narrow view and take the more holistic point re jobs in general. Also I live in an affluent high employment area. I also appreciate this type of work is hugely unreliable.

Also I know and again acknowledge others who have struggled looking for a rewarding career which matches their education and that is really demoralising for them.

I am seeing more people labouring and earning £25 an hour because no one else wants to do physical jobs. And they are struggling to take weekends off due to demand for their 'odd job' services. Not sure I would want to do it for 45 years though.

Universal Income needs to encourage work but protect basic needs of those who need it. In my town we see benefits career families. Not many, but the area is nice so if you have a home and basic costs met then you are pretty much sorted. But I imagine living in Glasgow, in a tenament block is no fun for a family.

It's a tricky one....location needs to be a factor but that muddies the water.

This is exactly the sort of work people would/could do if there was a CI. At present those that don't work who know how to play the system - have absolutely zero incentive to go out and work hard for an hour and a half for £30.

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In the models that I've read you pay tax on everything you earn.

Even the CI.

What a load of old tosh.

It'd instantly make many people worse off.

If done properly it should make the workshy instantly worse off - and the workers instantly better off.

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A economy based on over 80% services and an economic system based on endless debt growth are unsustainable.

As mentioned before there is not enough jobs for everyone and never will be. Every year thousands of young people leave education looking for work.

With the growth in technology and automation many jobs will be abolished and never return.

Basic income will have to be introduced eventually.

Edited by Assume The Opposite

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Because eventually all those poor people with nothing to lose will come for you................................TPTB aren't stupid, there will be some kind of bribing device (not necessarily a basic income) to buy off the lower orders as automation increases through society over the coming decades. As it stands we are well on course for the blade-runner style society IMO.

It seems to be received wisdom that if you treat poor people badly enough "they will come for you" but define badly enough.

Why haven't the poor in India or Africa risen up?

I think people's tolerance for being treated badly is pretty high (provided they are kept fed) - especially in the modern world where they have the soporific effects of television and the internet to keep them docile. Short of major food/water shortages I can't see a catalyst for people to rise up.

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The UK will introduce a basic income, but it will be one of the last countries in Europe to do so. Switzerland and the Nordics will lead the way thanks to having political systems that force the elite to respond to the wishes of the people (aka "democracy").

How will Europe control the rest of the 7 billion people in the world wanting to move there in the hope of gaining citizenship and access to the CI? From what I can tell the UK is the only country that's has a non contributory health and benefit system, that's why there are camps of thousands migrants in France hoping to force their way here.

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It took me 3 weeks to find someone to cut my neighbours hedge. It's a small frontage and the cheapest quote for a 1.5 hour job was £60 she didn't have (£35 would have been fair....bear in mind the cuttings go in her own recycle bins).

I did it myself in the end for a piece of cake and a cup of tea.

Appreciate and acknowledge that this is a really narrow view and take the more holistic point re jobs in general. Also I live in an affluent high employment area. I also appreciate this type of work is hugely unreliable.

I get your point on the UBI perhaps making jobs like this more plausible for 'fairer rates'.

However, in the world as it is, I'm not entirely sure why you think £35 would be fair for 1.5 hours. The £60 quoted is very reasonable imho.

The person has to spend time getting there, doing the job, and leaving. Their effective time spent there ratger than somewhere else is probably 2 hours, and potentially they have their own costs to consider in getting to the location. So that's £30 p/h gross. After costs, maybe £27. That equates to a full time job of 54k p/a approx, but without any not the assurances that goes along with it.

You say you're in an affluent, high employment area. Why shouldn't a hedge cutter/odd job man ask for an appropriate living wage for that area too?

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How will Europe control the rest of the 7 billion people in the world wanting to move there in the hope of gaining citizenship and access to the CI?

Why haven't you moved to Switzerland? Higher wages there than in the UK and you have a legal right to live and work there.

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It seems to be received wisdom that if you treat poor people badly enough "they will come for you" but define badly enough.

Why haven't the poor in India or Africa risen up?

I think people's tolerance for being treated badly is pretty high (provided they are kept fed) - especially in the modern world where they have the soporific effects of television and the internet to keep them docile. Short of major food/water shortages I can't see a catalyst for people to rise up.

Exactly, in India you see people working on the pavements performing simple jobs such as shining shoes and mending umberellas for cash, the idea that the government gives cash to the poor simply does not exist. Folks here think that the government will be able to massively increase the size of the welfare state when automation will actually reduce the tax base not increase it. The more likely scenario is that that a lot of people may have to invest in a shine box.

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Why haven't you moved to Switzerland? Higher wages there than in the UK and you have a legal right to live and work there.

I can't imagine it is easy got get a job there even if I do have the "right" to work there. but what's that go to do with the pull factor of a CI provided across all of the European countries?

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Exactly, in India you see people working on the pavements performing simple jobs such as shining shoes and mending umberellas for cash, the idea that the government gives cash to the poor simply does not exist. Folks here think that the government will be able to massively increase the size of the welfare state when automation will actually reduce the tax base not increase it. The more likely scenario is that that a lot of people may have to invest in a shine box.

A CI would massively reduce the welfare state.

I really wish people would have a read up about the basic logic of it before lashing out at the theory of it.

I can't stand seeing folk out there milking the benefits system. This stops this being possible - are at least massively reduces it - depending on the details.

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